The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:29 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

Statement by the Llywydd

Good afternoon and welcome to this Plenary session. Before we begin, I want to set out a few points. This meeting will be held in a hybrid format, with some Members in the Senedd Chamber and others joining by video-conference. All Members participating in proceedings of the Senedd, wherever they may be, will be treated equally. A Plenary meeting held using video-conference, in accordance with the Standing Orders of the Welsh Parliament, constitutes Senedd proceedings for the purposes of the Government of Wales Act 2006. Some of the provisions of Standing Order 34 will apply for today's Plenary meeting, and these are noted on your agenda.

1. Questions to the First Minister

The first item this afternoon is questions to the First Minister, and the first question is from John Griffiths.

COP26 and Reaching Net Zero

John Griffiths AC: 1. What impact does the Welsh Government anticipate COP26 will have on Wales reaching net zero? OQ57192

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank John Griffiths for that question, Llywydd. COP26 will provide opportunities for Wales to innovate, collaborate and develop international partnerships to help us achieve our net-zero by 2050 ambition. We will increase our exports of green skills and services and attract investment into Wales in pursuit of a just transition to net zero.

John Griffiths AC: First Minister, I was fortunate to attend COP26 last week, and I was pleased to see there the importance of integrated public transport being highlighted in the global effort to combat climate change. And, of course, locally in south-east Wales we have the Burns commission recommendations, many of which point to that need for more integrated public transport as the way forward for our area.I just wonder, when you reflect on COP26 and the Burns commission, and how they relate to each other, what you would see as the way forward for those recommendations from Burns, and particularly perhaps initial measures over the next year or so if we are to play our part in south-east Wales in making the necessary progress on integrated transport, which is an important part of the overall effort to combat climate change.
Also, given that taxis are an important part of the mix and, indeed, significant for air quality, when can we expect to see taxi fleets across Wales converted to electric vehicles?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I thank John Griffiths for that, and thank him for being at COP to represent his own committee and to make sure that, at the parliamentary level, Wales was represented and able to hold conversations, I know, with parliamentary representatives from other parts of the United Kingdom and around the world.
Well, the Burns committee report, Llywydd, seems to me entirely consistent with the COP26 message, that we have to change the way in which we travel, that we have to find new and better ways to make sure that we emphasise public transport routes to transport rather than a reliance on the car. Now, the 58 recommendations of the Burns review are being taken forward by the unit that has been established by Transport for Wales, and we expect shortly its first annual report from the two independent people who've been appointed to oversee the work of that unit. It will focus on immediate actions that can be taken—improving active travel routes to rail stations, for example, making sure that there are innovative new cycle ways to allow people to move by cycle as well as by public transport, and it will continue its work to place more detail around the recommendations of the review that rely on the reopening of the other line available from south Wales across the border. And, in that way, we continue to look forward to the results of the UK Government's connectivity review. It will be a real test of the UK Government and its willingness to invest in things for which it has responsibility and which make such a direct difference here in Wales.
As to taxis, Llywydd, the Welsh Government has an ambition that all taxis and private-hire vehicles will be zero emission by tailpipe by 2028. We are assisting in that transition with funding as well as policy measures, and I know John Griffiths will have seen that, last week, on 10 November, we launched a 'try before you buy' pilot. It's a scheme that allows taxi drivers and owners in the Cardiff capital region, in Denbighshire, and in Pembrokeshire to try out a fully electric wheelchair-compliant vehicle free of charge for 30 days in order to advertise the advantages of the electric vehicles to which John Griffiths drew attention.

Laura Anne Jones AC: First Minister, we all want Wales to achieve net zero as soon as possible, and I welcome some of the schemes that you've just outlined. But whilst the Welsh Government have been big on talk, declaring a climate emergency here in 2019, policies and change have been slow and cumbersome, key targets have been missed or changed, and successive budgets have been far from green. The state of nature report 2020 has highlighted that Wales has not met any of its four aims for the sustainable management of natural resources approach, and the latest electric vehicle plan is both overdue and lacks the detail that the people of Wales need. First Minister, when will you invest the money needed to hit the targets that your own Government has set itself?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I simply don't recognise the dismal picture the Member paints; a little more cheerfulness about Wales and our prospects for the future would not go amiss. This Government has taken radical action, usually opposed, of course, by her Members; whenever there is change, Members of the Conservative Party are on their feet to oppose it, and they're in that mode where climate change comes along. Let's hear another series of speeches in favour of a major road around Newport and see what good that will do for climate change. [Interruption.] That's exactly what I mean. The question that I'm asked comes from a party whose track record is always to oppose the necessary actions that are required, whether that's in transport, whether that's in the way that we will need to change our diets in the future—we'll hear another speech in a minute in favour of reactionary policies in the agriculture field. You name it, they oppose it, we do it.

The Rising Cost of Living

Alun Davies AC: 2. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the impact of the rising cost of living on people in Wales? OQ57215

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, households are under unprecedented financial pressure resulting from the pandemic, our exit from the European Union, the rising cost of living and cuts to welfare support. Deliberate and damaging decisions made by the UK Government are plunging many more vulnerable households in Wales into poverty.

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful to the First Minister for that. The toxic mixture of Brexit and Tory incompetence and economic mismanagement is hitting families hard. I see that every day in Blaenau Gwent. I'm sure Members across the whole Chamber will see the impact on real families, real people, real lives. We are seeing spiralling energy costs, the costs of food increasing, inflation across the whole of the household budget, and we are seeing cuts to universal credit hitting the poorest hardest, but that's what you expect from a Tory Government. First Minister, what is it that a Welsh Government can do to step in and help support families across Wales who are struggling as a consequence of this Tory incompetence?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Alun Davies for that. I think he's generous to describe the policies of the Conservative Government as the result of incompetence. My view is that they are very often the deliberate decisions of a Government that knows what it is doing, knows that there will be thousands more children in poverty in Wales because of their cuts to universal credit, but simply don't care. Now, here in the Welsh Government today, we have announced £51 million more to support families in Wales during the difficult months of the winter—months in which the Governor of the Bank of England, Andrew Bailey, told me last week we would see inflation rise to 5 per cent, over the winter months, just as people have less money to spend on those basics of energy and food, as Alun Davies said. That £51 million will provide £100 to families on the lowest income in Wales to help them with those costs over this winter. It will allow us to build further on our single advice fund services, services that in the last six months have resulted in £17.5 million extra being claimed by Welsh citizens from the benefit system. And we will continue to invest in the discretionary assistance fund.
Llywydd, when you look now to see the decisions that were made here in this Chamber, when the Conservative Government decided to rip up the social fund, the final safety net of the welfare state, here in this Chamber we decided to invest in a Welsh scheme that is the same across the whole of Wales, that is rules based, that allows people to appeal against decisions where they think they've not been made fairly. In England, they are having to reinvent a system that has long been abandoned, whereas, here in Wales, we will continue to put money into the discretionary assistance fund. A fund that, in the pandemic period alone, has paid out nearly a quarter of a million payments to our poorest citizens, at a cost of £15.9 million, to help those people to deal with the direct consequences of a global pandemic. Those are the things that this Welsh Government is determined to go on doing to protect our vulnerable households from the decisions being made elsewhere.

Mark Isherwood AC: In addition to continued cold weather payments and winter fuel payments across the UK, and to the £0.5 billion to support people into jobs announced by the UK Government last month, with £25 million of this going to the Welsh Government, the UK Government announced a new £0.5 billion household support fund for vulnerable households over the winter to be distributed by councils in England, with the Welsh Government also receiving £25 million of this. Last month, I asked your social justice Minister how the Welsh Government will ensure that its share of this money ends up helping those most in need in Wales. I, therefore, welcome the Welsh Government's announcement of a £51 million package to support people this winter, presumably match funded from the extra £2.5 billion annually for the Welsh Government announced in the recent UK budget. How will you, therefore, spend the £11.9 million of your £51 million household support fund not yet announced? And how will you work in real partnership with and empower councils, the voluntary sector, community groups and other social entrepreneurs to help deliver the solutions to the long-term problems of our most deprived communities?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, it's no great celebration in Wales to be offered £25 million by a Government that is taking nearly £250 million out of the pockets of our poorest citizens. That's what I call very small change indeed. I'm glad that the Welsh Government has been able to more than double the sum of money that we received in that consequential. And the answer to the Member's question is to be found in the statement that the Welsh Government has already published today, because, in addition to the £100 cash payment towards the payment of winter fuel bills, the statement details investments to support and bolster food banks, to invest in public transport assistance schemes, to put further money into the discretionary assistance fund, and to go on, as I said, supporting Welsh citizens to make sure that they receive the help they need from the UK benefit system through our Advicelink Cymru—Advicelink Cymru, Llywydd, where we are employing 35 new full-time equivalent welfare benefit advisers to deal with what we hope will be a very strong uptake from our Claim what's yours campaign, which we will be running from now until the end of March of next year. All of those things are covered in my colleague Jane Hutt's statement, and I commend it to the Member.

Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

Questions now from the party leaders. The Welsh Conservatives' leader, Paul Davies.

Paul Davies AC: Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, later this week you will give the Welsh Government's latest review of COVID-19 in Wales. Of course, during this current review period, the Welsh Government has pushed ahead with further measures in the form of COVID passes to many entertainment settings, and concerns have rightly been raised about the legal and ethical impacts of COVID passes. And the fact remains that there is no evidence to show that vaccine passports limit the spread of the virus or, indeed, increase uptake of the vaccine. This week, there are genuine fears that the Welsh Government will extend COVID passes out to hospitality settings too. First Minister, vaccine passports are not a route out of restrictions; they are, indeed, restrictions. Therefore, First Minister, as vaccine take-up continues to increase and COVID cases continue to go down, will you today confirm that you will not roll out these COVID passes to hospitality settings? And what criteria now have to be met to scrap the COVID passes that you've recently introduced?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, the Member has got it completely wrong. COVID passes are there to help to keep Wales open. They are there to follow the advice that we have from SAGE that Governments should take those low-intensity early measures that you can put in place to try to deal with the spread of coronavirus, which has been far, far too high in Wales, and simple measures that, cumulatively, can make a real difference. That is why they've been introduced in Wales—very successfully introduced in Wales. I remember all the shroud waving from his benches about how we wouldn't be able to do it, about how difficult it would be and what a mess there'd be when we did it—none of that is true. None of that is true, and the Member ought to know better than to suggest it. It is done very successfully, very smoothly and done by people who work hard to protect the Welsh public. It will help to keep businesses open. That's what it's designed to do, and I make no apologies for it whatsoever. It was the right thing to do, and I'm very glad that we have used that additional tool in the armoury to help to keep Wales safe and keep Wales open.
Three weeks ago, when the Cabinet was making its decisions, we had just reached a peak of 730 cases per 100,000 in Wales—the highest figure on any day in the whole of the pandemic period. You wouldn't think from his question that Wales was facing that sort of emergency, but that's the position we were in. Thankfully, because of the efforts that people in Wales have made, because of the extra things that we have put in place, those numbers have now reduced, and as the numbers reduce, then the need to take extra measures beyond those in place now reduces as well. But in the last two days, Llywydd, those numbers have turned up again. They are up significantly in Scotland in the last week; they are up very significantly in countries very close to the United Kingdom. So, nobody should think that we are somehow out of the woods on this yet. The Cabinet will look very carefully at the numbers. We are thankfully in a better position than we were three weeks ago, and that will form the context for the decisions that we will announce at the end of this week.

Paul Davies AC: First Minister, you know as well as I do that there's simply no scientific evidence to show that COVID passes are effective. The chief medical officer himself has said that the actual direct impact of COVID passes is probably quite small, so there is no scientific evidence to suggest that COVID passes are actually working.
Now, another way of helping to prevent the spread of COVID-19 is through testing, and so it was really disappointing last week to hear the deputy chief medical officer say he does not think that twice-weekly lateral flow testing of NHS staff is particularly important in the whole scheme of things. First Minister, it's crucial that NHS staff are routinely tested so that we can curb any hospital-acquired infections and provide people with confidence that, when they enter a health setting, they will treated by staff who have been regularly checked. It's absolutely critical that the Welsh Government urgently addresses this problem and starts seriously considering its approach to infection control in hospital settings, so we can better protect patients in the Welsh NHS. Of course, testing more generally remains an important part of the COVID puzzle. Through regular testing, we can understand where cases are and ensure local services are able to respond, and more effectively cope with demand on intensive care units. So, First Minister, how is the Welsh Government tackling hospital-acquired infections in Wales? Do you agree with the comments of the deputy chief medical officer, and can you tell us what the Welsh Government is doing to promote and encourage NHS staff to take regular lateral flow tests? And given the importance of testing the wider public to mitigate the risk of passing the virus on to others, what are you doing to strengthen the testing system in Wales to ensure that it is as effective as possible?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, the Member wanted to suggest that we weren't taking the advice of the chief medical officer on one score—he's wrong there, by the way: we do follow the chief medical officer's advice, and he supports our position on the COVID pass—but then he wants me to ignore the advice of the deputy chief medical officer when it comes to the testing regime. We will follow the best advice that we can have, we will continue to protect our health workers and our social care workers. I'm very encouraged by the take-up of the booster vaccine in both of those sectors, and we will continue to have a testing regime in both of those locations that is consistent with the best advice that we get.
On the broader point that the Member asks about testing, well, I agree with him there, of course, that testing is a very important part of our armoury in dealing with coronavirus. We encourage people to be tested whenever they have symptoms or they've been in touch with somebody who has been confirmed as a coronavirus case, and, of course, our COVID pass regime allows somebody to demonstrate that they have taken the measures they need to to keep themselves and others safe by taking a test within a short period of attending at a particularly high-risk venue. So, we will continue to do that. I will say this to the Member, that the biggest anxiety that I have about testing in Wales are the signs that we're getting from the UK Government and from the Treasury that they intend to withdraw funding from the testing regime across the United Kingdom, and that their plan for the post-winter period is to reduce testing to a residual part of the protection rather than the central part of the protection that it is at the moment across the United Kingdom, and certainly here in Wales.

Paul Davies AC: Well, First Minister, the reason that routine testing of NHS staff is so important, and, of course, regular testing in the community, is because people have lost loved ones to COVID-19. In Wales, one in four COVID deaths are from hospital-acquired infections, and so comments like that of the deputy chief medical officer have been understandably met with anger by those who have lost loved ones. Now, First Minister, it's yet another reason why we need to have a Wales-wide COVID inquiry, an inquiry that transcends party politics and gives people the answers that they need. The Member of the UK Parliament for Islwyn, Chris Evans, is absolutely right to highlight that devolution of powers cannot mean the evasion of accountability by the Welsh Government, and I urge all Members of this Chamber from every party to put politics to one side and support a Wales-wide COVID inquiry. So, First Minister, in the spirit of genuine co-operation across political lines and given you have members from your own party now calling for one, will you and your Government now reconsider your position and support a Wales-wide specific COVID inquiry to ensure that the people of Wales get the answers that they deserve in relation to the Government's handling of COVID-19 here in Wales?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, there is a depth of cynicism in that question that I think is genuinely concerning. The Member makes partisan political points while pretending that he does nothing of the sort. The attacks on the Welsh Government on this matter from his party are nakedly political in nature. I wrote to the Prime Minister again last week, Llywydd, setting out the prospectus that the Welsh Government expects to be delivered through the UK-wide inquiry that the Prime Minister has promised. I will meet the Secretary of State responsible for that this week. I will meet the families again at the start of December. It is still my view that the best way in which they will get the answers that they are looking for and deserve to pursue is in an inquiry that places the experience here in Wales under the microscope, but does it within the context within which those decisions were made. That is the only way, I believe, that they will get the sorts of answers that they are looking for. I say again, as I've said before, Llywydd, that if we don't get the assurances we need from the UK Government, then we would have to think again. But everything that I have been told by the Prime Minister directly and by the Ministers who work on his behalf is that they share our view that the inquiry should be shaped in a way that deliversthe sort of investigation of decisions that were made here in Wales but does it in a way that allows those decisions to be understood in the wider context within which they were always taken.

The leader of Plaid Cymru, Adam Price.

Adam Price AC: Prif Weinidog, I should like to raise with you the appalling consequences that the Westminster Government's pursuit of a hard Brexit is beginning to wreak on our living standards here in Wales and across these islands, and ask what your Government, in collaboration with the other devolved administrations, could do to persuade this lamentable London Government to change course. In its economic and fiscal outlook last month, the Office for Budget Responsibility concluded that, as a result of a hard Brexit, trade between the UK and the EU will be 15 per cent lower than had we stayed in the EU. That's twice the estimated long-run costs of COVID. It amounts to £80 billion a year, more than four times the Welsh Government's annual budget. Indeed, evidence before the House of Lords European Affairs Committee this week has pointed out that it's actually a 25 per cent reduction in trade since 2015. Inevitably, this will impact on Wales more than most other parts of the UK, given the relatively higher dependence of our economy on manufacturing and agriculture, and therefore trade with the EU. What is the Welsh Government's strategic approach to addressing this mounting long-term problem?

Mark Drakeford AC: I want to thank the leader of Plaid Cymru for that question. I think the point he made is worth repeating, Llywydd, isn't it, that the OBR, the Government's own advisers, in the run-up to the budget two weeks ago, concluded that the impact of Brexit in shrinking the UK economy would be twice the size of the global pandemic. And while the global pandemic is something from which we can recover, the Brexit impact is baked in to the agreement that the Prime Minister reached—an agreement without, as we would have wished to see, an economic relationship with the European Union with access to the single market, a customs union, to support it. And the result is that people in Wales will be permanently—permanently—poorer as a result of the deal that the Prime Minister struck. And we see it, as the leader of Plaid Cymru said, across the range of the Welsh economy. We see it in the care home sector, where we're no longer able to recruit people who did such valuable work here in Wales. We see it in the HGV driver shortage, which is a UK-wide phenomenon and where the paltry measures that the UK Government introduced are having a negligible effect on that set of difficulties. We have a manufacturing industry in Wales unable to operate at full strength because of supply chain bottlenecks, because trade no longer flows without barriers with our nearest and most important neighbours.
Llywydd, we approach it as a Welsh Government in two specific ways. There are the particular problems that are caused at Welsh ports, in Holyhead and in Pembrokeshire, with trade depressed and new difficulties in its path. And there we try to persuade the UK Government to do the things that would allow the land bridge, the most effective way of transporting goods between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland and the UK and on to Europe, to make that function again as it did before their deal was struck. And then, more widely, we work with others, we work with our colleagues in Scotland and in Northern Ireland, to try to put pressure on the UK Government to approach relationships with our most important trading partners on the basis of mutual respect, on the basis that, if there are difficulties in agreements that need to be sorted out, you come around the table, you see the position from the other person's point of view as well as your own, and then you reach a formula that brings about improvement. What you don't do is to approach it as this UK Government does, where everything is an argument, where everything is a chance to fall out, where everything, as it seems to me, is a chance to make a difficult situation even worse.

Adam Price AC: Prif Weinidog, you mentioned Holyhead there and, of course, the Northern Ireland dimension of the UK Government's intransigence in pursuing the hardest of hard Brexits is calculated to make things much, much worse. The Westminster Government is now threatening, as we know, to suspend parts of the Northern Ireland deal that protect the EU's single market, article 16 of the trade and co-operation agreement. Indeed, even last night, Boris Johnson was saying that such a suspension would be legitimate, reasonable and appropriate, when of course it is none of these things at all; it is the very opposite. If that were to happen then, in response, the EU would undoubtedly retaliate by suspending or repudiating part or whole of the post Brexit trade deal that Britain has with the EU. That would make our trading losses in Wales even worse, quite apart from the complete breakdown of trust that would occur between Britain and the EU. What additional mitigating actions are the Welsh Government planning if the UK Government does indeed pursue this course, which appears increasingly likely?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, first of all, let us hope that they don't pursue such a course, because, as Adam Price has said, it would simply be to make a difficult situation even more damaging—economically, in terms of trade, but also in terms of the situation on the island of Ireland.
Llywydd, later this week, Wales will host the next meeting of the British-Irish Council. It will bring the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste here to Wales. It'll bring the First Minister of Scotland and Ministers from Northern Ireland as well as the other participants. I really hope that that meeting will not take place against the background of unilateral action by the UK Government on article 16, because that is a forum where, historically, people have worked very hard to make sure that the right things are done, the relationships are improved not damaged. And there'll be opportunities there, because the Prime Minister doesn't choose to attend the British-Irish Council anymore, but Michael Gove will be there, and there will be opportunities for discussions on these difficult issues to take place there and avoid the breakdown of trust that Adam Price referred to.
As the chair of the British-Irish Council this week, then Wales has been working hard already and will continue to work hard at the council to make sure that we use that opportunity in the most constructive way possible, recognising the unique circumstances on the island of Ireland and the damage that would be done were article 16 to be triggered.

Adam Price AC: In a BBC interview just over a week ago, your counterpart in Westminster, Sir Keir Starmer, said he wants to make Brexit work. First Minister, can I ask you what you understand by that phrase or how you interpret it? Will you be advising him that, in the best interests of Wales, as well as the UK, it should mean, at the very least, rejoining the EU's customs union and single market?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I think Sir Keir Starmer, who led for Labour during those long months of the exit negotiations, will have been pointing to a distinction that the UK Government was so reluctant to recognise. The United Kingdom has left the European Union. That battle is over. There was an opportunity to strike a new economic relationship—no longer part of the political union, no longer part of the social union, but an economic relationship—which would have been absolutely acceptable to Mrs Thatcher, who negotiated most of it, and which would have preserved the ability of businesses here in Wales to go on trading and to go on developing markets that they had invested so much in over the 40 years. That was an argument that Sir Keir Starmer made regularly and routinely during all of those negotiations. I heard him myself. I had the opportunity to be in meetings with him where he made that point to UK Ministers—that you could leave the European Union in the political sense, in the way the referendum had determined, but that did not mean that you had to damage your economic interests in the process. Rebuilding an economic set of arrangements that allows trade to flow, that allows businesses to thrive, seems to me to be the most modest ambition that anybody looking at the current state of play would want to pursue.

The Real Living Wage

Mike Hedges AC: 3. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the percentage of the Welsh workforce earning at or above the real living wage? OQ57177

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Mike Hedges for that question, Llywydd. According to the Living Wage Foundation, in 2021, the proportion of employee jobs in Wales paid at least the real living wage was 82.1 per cent. Yesterday’s announcement of an increase in the hourly rate of the real living wage will benefit almost 13,000 workers in Wales at 359 accredited employers.

Mike Hedges AC: Can I thank you, First Minister, for your reply? Making Wales a nation where everybody gets paid at least the real living wage is one of my ambitions. Whilst the Welsh Government cannot instruct private companies that have no funding from the Welsh Government, they have influence over directly funded organisations and those who contract with Welsh Government-funded organisations and those who get Welsh Government funding. How does the Welsh Government influence such companies to pay the real living wage, which I believe everybody deserves?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Mike Hedges for that. It's an ambition he set out that I certainly share, and, Llywydd, the good news was that there was a larger move forward in the number of employers accredited as paying the real living wage last year than for a number of years past, and that's despite all the difficulties that companies have faced in that period, and there were significant new accreditations this year—the Wales Millennium Centre, Techniquest, the Village Bakery in Wrexham, all joining that growing list of employers who recognise not just the social justice case that Mike Hedges set out, but the economic case for business. It's not just a reputational gain by being a real living wage employer; it means that you're more likely to recruit, you're more likely to retain, you're more likely to have people who want to contribute to the success of that company. There is a business argument for the real living wage.
I intend to write, Llywydd, to all public sector employers in Wales, following yesterday's announcement of the uplift in the real living wage, to urge them once again to commit to being on that accreditation journey. I'm happy to recognise, or at least I'm willing to recognise, that that journey will take longer for some bodies than others; what I'm not willing to accept is that you haven't committed to beginning that journey. And once you're in the process, then we have seen from events here in Cardiff—where we have a health board that is accredited, a council that is accredited, an ambition to be a real living wage city—once you're on the journey, then there will be a wind in your sails that will take you to the position that Mike Hedges set out in his supplementary question.

Gareth Davies AS: Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd, and good afternoon, First Minister. First Minister, your Government says it aims to pay those working in social care the real living wage. While there is still no clarity as to when this will happen, there is no doubt that it's much needed. As we've just discussed, the Living Wage Foundation increased the living wage and it now stands at £9.90 per hour. But this is still below the level that we in the Welsh Conservatives and other opposition parties would pay our care staff—we pledge £10 per hour. First Minister, do you think it's right that somebody collecting trolleys in a supermarket earns as much as those caring for our most vulnerable citizens here in Wales? Do you think that's right?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, I imagine the Member is a good deal stronger a supporter of the market economy than I would be, but he appears willing to intervene in it when he thinks that it's to his advantage. I was pleased, Llywydd, to see that six care companies announced yesterday that they had joined the accredited list of companies in Wales who pay the real living wage. Our party, my party, made a commitment at the last election that we would pay carers in Wales the real living wage, and that is what we will do. We have now received the advice of the social care fair work forum; it met eight times in order to fashion that advice for us. There will be a ministerial meeting with the forum next week, and, when we publish our draft budget on 20 December, Members will see how we plan to put that pledge into action.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Prif Weinidog, I share Mike Hedges's ambition, and agree with you with regard to the economic benefit of the real living wage. I'm dismayed by the Conservatives' comments, always trying to pit people against each other—it's sad and it's totally unnecessary.
Prif Weinidog, there are 300 accredited living wage employers in Wales, including every single higher education sector in Wales—the only country in the United Kingdom. I was pleased yesterday with Dafydd Llywelyn's announcement—Plaid Cymru's Police and Crime Commissioner in Dyfed-Powys—that Dyfed-Powys is following down that route, but the only police force in Wales. And, as you mentioned, Cwm Taf, Cwm Taf is the only—. Sorry, Cardiff and Vale is the only health board, but Cwm Taf is starting on that journey.
I note that you said that you'd write a letter to them, but what more can you do, Prif Weinidog, to urge these public bodies to make sure that, by the next Living Wage Week next year, all public bodies in Wales can be accredited, or certainly be starting that important journey forward? Diolch yn fawr.

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for that supplementary question, and I agree with much of what he said. I too welcome the decision by the PCC of Dyfed-Powys to become an accredited employer, and Rhys ab Owen is right to point to the success of the higher education sector in Wales. In Swansea, in Mike Hedges's own city, it's a leading example of what can be done. The Welsh Government ourselves try to lead by example. We are an accredited real living wage employer. We fund Cynnal Cymru to be the vehicle that campaigns on this issue, that has had the success that I outlined earlier. The gap between the percentage of employees in Wales who are covered by the real living wage and elsewhere shrank again last year. It's been shrinking year by year, and we're now very close indeed to the UK position as well. We use the influence that we have through our economic contract, and certainly, in the letter that I will be writing to public bodies in Wales, I'll be making all the points that Members here have made about the benefits of doing so.

The Impact of COP26

Jenny Rathbone AC: 4. What is the First Minister's assessment of the impact of COP26 for Wales? OQ57202

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member. Llywydd, a major impact of COP26 will have been the increased public consciousness it has created in Wales of the need for urgent action. Through COP Cymru and Wales Climate Week we aim to galvanise the collective effort required of Welsh citizens post COP26 in pursuit of a planet fit for future generations.

Jenny Rathbone AC: First Minister, I very much look forward to taking part in COP Cymru, because I'm sure that's absolutely right—we need to engage everybody in this venture to save the world from climate disaster.
Clearly, COP is a work in progress in persuading all countries that we have to radically change in order to avert the climate disaster that is staring us in the face. The UK retains its leadership of COP and yet, in this country, the UK continues to spend £10 billion a year on fuel subsidies. So, I very much welcome Wales joining the end oil and gas coalition. How do you think you can help persuade the UK Government of the need to end the scandal of fossil fuel subsidies, which is such a major contributor to the problems we now face?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Jenny Rathbone for that, and thank her as well for having taken the time to travel to Glasgow and to be part of the COP discussions, as I know other Members in other parts of the Chamber did too. I agree, Llywydd, with what Jenny Rathbone said—COP did deliver a number of very important outcomes. The steps ahead in relation to deforestation, on methane, on the sums of money that have been put together now to support those countries in other parts of the world that are already at the sharp end of climate change—those were successes of the COP process, and they were successes of the leadership of the COP process shown by Alok Sharma as well. There were things, however, that we would have hoped that COP would have been able to grapple with that now are deferred to another day. And certainly, the curbing of fossil fuel extraction is one of the things that COP didn't bring off in the way that its initial ambitions would have suggested.
So, I'm very glad, Llywydd, that Wales is one of the eight founding core members of the end oil and gas coalition. It was one of the high spots of our participation in the conference. We are members alongside member states such as Costa Rica, Denmark, France, Ireland, Sweden and New Zealand, and we're there with other sub-national Governments from California and Quebec. The alliance will become the vehicle, we believe, through which we will collectively, with those other partners, be able to do more to end the extraction of fossil fuels. Here in Wales, we have the hierarchy that my colleague Lesley Griffiths developed during the time that she was responsible for these things, in which fossil fuels are at the bottom of our fuel and energy hierarchy. And in Wales, we are committed to reducing and then preventing further extraction of those inevitably limited and finite resources. We will bring the policies that we have delivered and the determination we have to implement them to be part of that alliance, and then attract others to the same cause, because that is an absolutely necessary part of the follow-up work that now will have to be conducted beyond the conference in Glasgow.

Public Transport in South Wales East

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: 5. How is the Welsh Government encouraging the growth of public transport use in South Wales East? OQ57211

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member. Llywydd, the greatest contribution to growth in public transport use in South Wales East will come through a sustained fall in the rate of coronavirus in the area. Since the start of the pandemic, use of public transport has recovered but remains well below pre-pandemic levels.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Diolch, Prif Weinidog. I was recently at COP26 and the overriding theme was that we need radical action to change our fate on this planet. This includes the way we approach public transport. It needs to be more attractive if people are to ditch their cars. Unfortunately, this much-needed culture change has been hampered by crowded scenes like the ones we saw after the Wales versus Belarus game, the issues that seem to have been resolved with Stagecoach not paying drivers a fair wage, which have seriously impacted services in my region, and some pre-COVID services disappearing off the timetable. The Welsh transport strategy that you unveiled earlier this year includes a target that 45 per cent of journeys will be made by public transport by 2040, an increase from 32 per cent in the pre-pandemic period. What would you say to someone in my region who remains to be convinced that public transport is the clean, comfortable and reliable service that they need it to be?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for that important supplementary question, which I think raises a series of really important issues. The COVID context is still very real indeed for public transport, Llywydd. In the last financial year, the Welsh Government spent £176 million over and above what we would normally have spent on rail services simply to keep the rail service going. In the last 15 months, we have spent £108 million in sustaining bus services, and yet patronage outside those major event days is still very significantly below where it would have been in the month before coronavirus hit. Bus patronage fell by up to 95 per cent at the bleakest days of the pandemic; it's recovered to 66 per cent. Rail journeys did recover and are recovering this year, but in the last quarter for which figures are available, there were 182 million rail passenger journeys across the United Kingdom, and in the same quarter in 2019, the figure was 437 million. At the moment, that is still the shaping context for our public transport providers. They have far fewer people, their farebox is radically down, they are depending on our limited ability to go on providing subsidies, and it is difficult for them to shape that future.
Nevertheless, as a Welsh Government, we go on doing the things we said we would do to create the south Wales metro, which will be relevant to the Member's region. We will publish a bus plan in January, which will be the precursor to the White Paper and the Bill that we will then bring forward here in the Senedd to re-regulate bus services. We will go on investing in the electric fleet, which is there to be seen in Newport and Cardiff and outside as well. So, despite the difficulties, which are very real and still press very hard on the industry, we will go on investing in the conditions that will allow the person to whom Peredur Owen Griffiths referred, that we have to convince that leaving the car behind and getting on a bus or a train, that we will have answers for them that they will find convincing.

Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: 6. What assessment has the First Minister made of the management of Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board? OQ57214

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, a new chief executive, a new medical director and two new independent members have been appointed this year to strengthen the leadership of Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board, as required by the current level of intervention set by the Welsh Government.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you. First Minister, in addition to the chief exec, chairman, vice-chairman, seven independent members, seven executive directors, the board also pays eight pan-regional directors and 36 directors, heads and leads for the individual regions—in total, 66 directors. In spite of this top-heavy management structure, you will be aware of letters received last week by doctors working at emergency departments at Ysbyty Gwynedd, Glan Clwyd and Maelor, and they warned you and others that our medical and nursing leadership has failed to address patterns of behaviour that cripple efficiency and that have not evolved for decades.
These alarming letters underline that departments have become routinely crowded to the point where delivering even the most fundamental aspects of emergency medicine, such as rapid ambulance offload, triage, early assessment and investigations, and time-critical interventions in sepsis, stroke, cardiac care, major trauma and resuscitation are well compromised. And that's despite a current vacancy rate of 670 vacancies for front-line nurses. Given this chaos that exists within this board, will you liaise with your Minister for Health and Social Services to establish an inquiry into the management to determine whether taking them out of special measures, just before an election, was in fact the right decision?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, last week the Member was complaining that there were not enough bureaucrats behind their desk, and this weeks she wants to complain that there are too many. [Interruption.] I was in the Chamber last week when the Member complained about the lack of people behind their desks in north Wales, and I'm listening carefully to what she is saying today when she complains there are too many people doing those jobs. There was no letter received last week, Llywydd. Those letters were written in December of last year and June of this year—[Interruption.] And the letters to which the Member referred, Llywydd—. I'm listening carefully to her, even if she doesn't listen to herself. The letters to which she referred were written in December last year and June of last year—

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Take it seriously—

Mark Drakeford AC: I'll take it seriously, because I have also seen the reply that the board made to those letters in July of this year—the board paper, the very detailed board paper, and the very serious board paper that went through the points that those clinicians raised, because they are genuinely very important points, and the board is taking them with the seriousness that they deserve. They have 800 more nurses in place in Betsi Cadwaladr than they did at the start of the last Senedd term, so that's 800 more people able to help the board in providing the services that people in the Member's constituency and across north Wales rely on and deserve.
The health service, in every part of Wales and in every part of the United Kingdom, is under the most enormous pressure, and she can be assured and the people—[Interruption.] It may not be good enough for the Member, but she has no magic wand and she has no easy answers to these problems and neither does anybody else. She can be assured and, more importantly, residents of north Wales can be assured that the whole effort of the board and its senior management is directed to doing everything they can to deal with the daily pressures that the health service is experiencing, and to make sure that the thousands of people who, just today, in this single day, the thousands of people in north Wales who will have used the health service and used it successfully, go on receiving that service.

The Community Renewal Fund

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: 7. What discussions has the First Minister had with UK Government Ministers about the community renewal fund? OQ57196

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, the UK Government has made a deliberate decision to exclude the Senedd from the design and delivery of that fund. It continues to trample over the devolution settlement and to abandon its promise that Wales would not be a penny worse off as a result of leaving the European Union.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: First Minister, the difficulty with this and the lack of engagement is the lack of fit within the policy framework in Wales, with the future generations Act, our approach to economic investment, our approach to jobs and skills and our approach to developing and integrating the higher education sector within the work that we do to power the economy forward. If we have random input of funding from the UK Government without any engagement with that, then it's a recipe for chaos, quite frankly. Could I ask the First Minister: does he hold out any hope whatsoever that the Wales Office, UK departmental Ministers and, indeed, the Prime Minister himself will actually wake up to the reality of working with Wales, not just with local authorities and individual organisations on the ground, but with the Welsh Government, the elected Welsh Government, in order to make sure that the investment delivers what it's meant to deliver?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I have repeatedly offered the UK Government to become involved in this programme on the basis of co-decision making. I did that reluctantly, Llywydd, because those decisions should be made here; these are devolved responsibilities, confirmed in two referendums by the people of Wales. It is funding that belongs here for this Senedd to decide on, but because of all the arguments that Huw Irranca-Davies makes, Chair—and he makes them with authority because he is chair of the strategic forum for regional investment in Wales—because of all those arguments about wanting public money to be used to best effect, to make sure that the projects that are selected are in tune with the other things that are being funded in that area, I have offered Welsh Government engagement in it, provided that we are co-decision makers. The UK Government is not interested in that offer. It wishes to proceed as it has demonstrated in recent weeks; it wants decisions about Wales to be made in London. It wants Whitehall to know better than we do about the things that matter the most here in Wales, and while that continues to be the way in which it approaches these things, I'm afraid that whatever offers we would make as a Welsh Government to assist, they're unlikely—and I'm very sad; I'm genuinely sad to say—they're very unlikely to be heard with any receptivity.

And finally, question 8, Joyce Watson.

Neonatal Parents

Joyce Watson AC: 8. What is the Welsh Government doing to support neonatal parents? OQ57209

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Joyce Watson, Llywydd. In the last Senedd term, the Welsh Government invested £110 million in neonatal developments across Wales. That includes specialist perinatal mental health services, which are now available in every health board in Wales, supported by over £3 million in annual mental health improvement funding.

Joyce Watson AC: I thank you for that answer, First Minister. Tomorrow marks World Prematurity Day, when we turn our thoughts and our focus to premature birth, which, sadly, sometimes has an overwhelming impact on families. I know that this is something your Government has paid special attention to through the First 1000 Days programme, and with consistent investment in perinatal mental health services, which you've mentioned. The Welsh Government's latest update on this to the Children, Young People and Education Committee set out the good progress that has been made on bereavement support, but is there an update on what is being done to improve psychological support for neonatal parents as well, which the committee had also recommended?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Joyce Watson for that, Llywydd, and for drawing attention to World Prematurity Day tomorrow. One in 10 babies in Wales will need neonatal care, and I think many people would be surprised to learn that in 2020, 2,800 babies in Wales were admitted to neonatal care. I'm very grateful to organisations such as Bliss for the support they offer to families in those circumstances, and I'm hugely grateful to those members of staff, because neonatal services in Wales have been under huge pressure, alongside the rest of the health service, Llywydd, in recent weeks, with absence rates of up to 30 per cent—staff falling ill with coronavirus, affected by it in other ways.
When I was the health Minister, Llywydd, I had the opportunity to visit a number of neonatal units. You barely want to breathe when you're there with babies as tiny as you see being successfully looked after there. Meeting parents, it is a deeply distressing experience for many of them, and psychological support, as Joyce Watson has said, is very important for them too. There are royal college standards in this area, which every health board is working to meet, and where new funding has been made available by the Welsh Government to assist them in doing so. Improved access to psychological therapies remains a priority for service improvement funding in this area, alongside the physical infrastructure, which is very much evident in Joyce Watson's part of Wales. But the therapeutic side is also receiving that investment.

Thank you, First Minister.

2. Business Statement and Announcement

The next item, therefore, is the business statement and announcement. I call on the Trefnydd to make that statement. Lesley Griffiths.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I've added one statement to today's agenda on COP26, which will be delivered by the Deputy Minister for Climate Change. The statements on second homes and affordability and the Welsh language communities housing plan have been postponed. Draft business for the next three weeks is set out on the business statement and announcement, which can be found amongst the meeting papers available to Members electronically.

Darren Millar AC: Thank you for your business statement, Minister. Can I call for a statement to mark Inter Faith Week? This week is Inter Faith Week, and, of course, faith groups across Wales make a huge contribution to society. I think it would be an opportune time to mark the week if a Government statement was issued. It would also be helpful, I think, in that statement, if you could explain why the First Minister was able to celebrate Diwali, an important Hindu festival, this week without a face covering, while people across the country are still having to cover their mouths in order to sing hymns in places of worship across the country. That clearly is very much a double standard and needs to be addressed. So, I would welcome a statement on these important issues.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I don't think it's appropriate to make a statement, but I certainly would pay tribute to all the organisations that support us as a Welsh Government. You'll be aware of the incredible work that they do with the Minister for Social Justice. I know that you lead prayer meetings every week, and, again, I will say thank you, particularly to David Emery.

Luke Fletcher AS: I'd like to ask for a statement relating to the Welsh Government's guidance on international travel. Specifically, a constituent in the Llynfi valley recently contracted COVID-19, but has been out of isolation since Tuesday 9 November. She is planning to travel to San Francisco on Wednesday 24 November, but in order to make that journey is in need of medical certification in addition to the COVID pass. She has tried every avenue, and has been signposted by several services to her local GP surgery in Maesteg, but they are telling her that they have not been given any indication that they are able to provide medical certification by higher authorities.I can imagine this is an issue not just for my constituent in the Llynfi valley, but also for a number of people who are looking to travel. It seems to methat the relevant services are not communicating with each other at the moment, and I'm not aware of any specific guidance from the Welsh Government to the NHS in Wales about issuing letters or medical certificates for the purpose of travel. Both myself and my constituent in the Llynfi valley would greatly appreciate guidance from the Minister for health as soon as possible.

Lesley Griffiths AC: The Minister for Health and Social Services did issue a written statement, I think it was last week, on international travel. I will certainly ask her if there is anything further with specific regard to the query that you raise, and, if there is, I will ask her to do a further written statement.

Mike Hedges AC: I would like to ask for two statements, the first on the Welsh Government's policy on outsourcing—directly or by Welsh Government-funded bodies in Wales, such as Sport Wales. I am opposed to outsourcing, because I believe there is a serious danger of either a reduction in the quality of provision, or a reduction in the terms and conditions of those employed, or often both.
I would also like a statement on IT upgrades for Welsh Government-funded organisations. It is the view of the Senedd Commission that it can be more difficult to install security upgrades on older computers; they find that older laptops also fail on a more regular basis, causing disruption. They say their way of working is in line with industry best practice. Their definition of an older computer is one that is five years old. How many computers in Welsh Government-funded organisations are over five years old, and what programme have you got to upgrade them?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. With regard to your first query, around outsourcing, we're keen to explore where services and contracts can sustainably and affordably be brought back into a strengthened public sector. It's one of our programme for government commitments, and we are expecting delivery of that at an early stage in this governmental term, certainly looking at year 2, I would say—2022-23. We'll continue to work with stakeholders, and clearly we have a social partnership Bill team to ensure consistency of approach with the Bill.
In relation to your second question, I'm not quite sure how many computers are over the age of five years—certainly, my personal one is a lot older than that. It is really important that we have a digital strategy, and the Member will be aware of our digital strategy, which we published in March, just before the election. That does set a very clear vision and ambition for a co-ordinated digital approach here in Wales.

Natasha Asghar AS: Minister, may I ask for a statement from the Deputy Minister for Climate Change on the importance of the logistics industry in our everyday lives? The logistics industry is worth over £127 billion to the UK economy, but its true value is in the role it plays in making sure we get everything we need—from those all-important toilet rolls to turkeys on our tables, and, in the name of equality, nut roasts for those of you who are vegetarians and vegans amongst us. As such, it is fundamental to the way that we live our lives. Last week, I met with representatives of the Road Haulage Association to hear what is being done to encourage people into the industry as a career choice, and, in particular, for young people, to show the vast range of employment opportunities in the logistics sector, including administration, driving, warehouse work, workshop work, and also management. During the visit, they expressed the view that the Welsh Government does not appreciate the work that they do, which is demonstrated by the failure to appoint anyone from the industry to the roads review panel. May I ask for a statement from the Deputy Minister that recognises the importance of the logistics industry to the Welsh economy, and what action is he taking to support this vital sector of the economy, to ensure fairness and equality actually exist in the decision-making process right here in Wales? Thank you, Minister.

Lesley Griffiths AC: The Welsh Government certainly appreciates our logistics industry. Clearly, the pandemic showed the vulnerabilities of it, and Brexit, unfortunately, has had a significant impact on it. I think the UK Government need to really get a grip of the logistics issues that we are facing. They've come forward with stop-gap measures; I'm aware they've written, I think, to everybody who holds a HGV licence to see if they can encourage them back in. You'll be aware that we've just recently held Blas Cymru, and, obviously, the food industry and sector here in Wales absolutely relies on our logistics staff. It was good to see some of them represented there. It's how we make it attractive for it to be a career option and an opportunity. So, again, within my portfolio, from the food section, we're certainly doing a great deal of work, but I know the Deputy Minister certainly does value the industry very much.

Heledd Fychan AS: Trefnydd, over the past fortnight, I have raised twice with the Minister for health the concerns of those with autism and their families regarding the COVID pass. Even though the COVID guidelines were updated last week to state that locations should be available to those who can't take lateral flow tests, this isn't strong enough as compared to the system in England. The Government's website states that you are still updating the system that will update the COVID pass automatically, to note that people can't be vaccinated for medical purposes. Can we have a statement and clarity from the Minister on this situation, please, including a timescalein terms of when this system will have been updated, and when more detailed guidance will be available to ensure access to venues for those who can't take LFTs and can't be vaccinated?
May I also ask the Minister for Climate Change for an update on the inconsistency that we see in terms of Transport for Wales services, in terms of announcements with regard to the importance of wearing face coverings? I have received several complaints from people being very concerned that they don't feel safe on the trains at the moment, and I would be grateful to know what is being done to ensure that the announcements are consistent and that the messages are entirely clear in terms of how vital these are. Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. In relation to your first question, I am aware that work is in progress around the COVID pass in the way you suggest. So, I will ask the Minister for Health and Social Services to issue a written statement when that work has been completed.
With regard to your second point, I think it is absolutely vital that Transport for Wales continue to have announcements and to ensure that people are wearing face coverings. I know the Deputy Minister for Climate Change is certainly working with Transport for Wales around that. I came down by train yesterday from north Wales. I had to ask the conductor to remind people that a mask was mandatory in Wales, because you'll appreciate coming down from Wrexham you cross into England. I have to say, when he asked people, they all put their masks on, every single one of them. So, people are making the choice, or maybe they don't know it's mandatory in Wales. So, it is absolutely vital that announcements are made on our trains to ensure that people are aware it's mandatory and law here in Wales.

Vikki Howells AC: Thank you, Trefnydd. I'd like to request two statements, please, from the Minister for health. Firstly, Wednesday is World COPD Day, and across Wales over 76,000 people live with COPD, which can have a considerable impact on a person's quality of life. Constituencies like mine, with an industrial heritage, have above-average rates. So, can we have a statement on how the Welsh Government is supporting people in Wales with this condition?
Secondly, Thursday marks a year since the World Health Organization launched a global strategy to accelerate the elimination of cervical cancer as a public health issue. Working with Jo's Cervical Cancer Trust, I tabled a statement of opinion welcoming this anniversary. But could we have an update on Welsh Government interventions to eliminate cervical cancer? And what in particular is being done to improve access to cervical screening?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. As you say, today we do mark World COPD Day. It's an opportunity to highlight the impact of COPD and consider the impact that the pandemic is also having on people with COPD. We're very much committed to improving care and outcomes for people living with this condition, and we've got a number of nationally led programmes in place. We've also announced £240 million of in-year funding to support NHS recovery, and that includes £1 million for chronic condition management in primary care. It's really important that people with COPD make use of the COPD app that's currently being developed here in Wales by the NHS, as I think that will help both individuals who have the condition and also the NHS work together better.
In relation to your second point around cervical cancer, as you say, it's a year on Thursday since the WHO committed to eliminate cervical cancer as a public health issue, and we fully support their strategy to have elimination of cervical cancer by 2030. We know that will be achieved by vaccination, by screening, and by the treatment of pre-cancerous lesions. We're really proud that Cervical Screening Wales was the first UK cervical screening programme to fully roll out high-risk HPV testing as a primary scheme back in 2018. And since 2008, girls here in Wales aged 12 and 13 have been offered the HPV vaccine. We know that that combination of immunisation and screening is really having a positive impact, and I think it's down to us all to make sure we encourage our constituents to take full advantage of that screening.

And finally, Laura Jones.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Thank you, business Minister. I'd like to call for a statement by the Minister for education given the recent news and worrying news that teachers are being recorded during lessons and that the footage is being uploaded to the social media platform TikTok. It is a situation that is getting out of hand, and I'm aware of many schools now having written to parents to increase awareness of what is going on. It is becoming increasingly apparent that governments need to take action now, working with social media organisations, to crack down on offensive videos aimed at teachers. Teachers across Wales have been targeted with defamatory and offensive videos posted by these pupils on TikTok. This is causing significant concern among teachers and school staff. Teachers do a wonderful job educating our children. We are all to quick to praise the job that they do. Their role in schools needs to be a safe space for them, as well as the pupils. So, could the Minister make a statement on how the Government is looking to help our education providers combat this, and to clarify what guidance you will issue to teachers to try and help them in this regard?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. It's completely unacceptable that teachers are facing such behaviour. There are behaviours such as creating hoax accounts, for instance, that can cause great harm, and they have a devastating impact on individuals. I know that the Minister has liaised with the UK Council for Internet Safety to ensure that we have a co-ordinated approach across the UK on this matter, and the UK CIS has contacted TikTok regarding this issue.
We have also updated our guidance on viral challenges to show the support available to teachers in order to be able to protect their well-being. As colleagues, I'm sure, are aware, it's Anti-Bullying Week this week, so we are working with the office of the children's commissioner to promote the range of classroom resources that are available on the Hwb to support respectful behaviour online. But, I do think that it's absolutely critical that social media platforms recognise their responsibility and their duty of care to their users.

I thank the Trefnydd.

3. Statement by the Minister for Rural Affairs, North Wales, and Trefnydd: The Bovine TB Eradication Programme

The next item, therefore, is a statement by the Minister for rural affairs on the bovine TB eradication programme. I call on the Minister to switch over her files and to present the statement on TB. Lesley Griffiths.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Today, I am giving my annual update on progress of our TB eradication programme. It is four years since the launch of the regionalised approach and we have continually refined our policies, particularly with regard to the changing disease picture. I am also announcing a 12-week consultation on a refreshed TB eradication programme. We have seen good progress since our programme was first established, with long-term decreases in incidence and prevalence. The 48 per cent decrease in new TB incidents since 2009 demonstrates that our programme is making a real difference to farming families and businesses.
Unfortunately, we are currently tackling spikes in disease in north Wales's intermediate TB area north, and low TB area, by implementing enhanced measures. On 1 November, herds located in hotspots in Denbighshire and the Conwy valley were assigned intermediate TB area north status. This will require pre-movement testing, a key risk-reduction measure to stop disease spreading. Additional testing around breakdown herds is also now required, with veterinary 'keep it out' visits available to contiguous herds testing clear in these hotspots, and the small cluster around Pennal, with further measures in train.
In response to changes in milk contracts, we allowed the establishment of orange markets and rearing approved finishing units, giving farmers outlets for surplus dairy calves. Having received many representations from farmers wanting these outlets, it is disappointing to see low use. I would encourage the industry to consider setting up more to maximise their potential.
A key aim of our programme is the rapid, accurate, early identification of infection. We strive to improve TB diagnostics, embracing new research and being open to new validated tests. In collaboration with our programme board and Aberystwyth University, we are considering the future of TB diagnostics. We are seeking views in the consultation on testing protocols, initially in relation to the pre-movement test, to minimise the risk of moving infected cattle.
Learning from experiences in north Wales, we have a toolkit of measures ready to deploy in hotspot areas if required, to assertively tackle spikes in disease. In the new year, we are strengthening our TB breakdown controls across Wales, and keepers will receive further information beforehand.
Whilst we consider testing arrangements, we recognise the resourcing challenges being faced by the veterinary profession. In response, I am commissioning a review of the options to supplement our veterinary capacity for TB testing through greater use of appropriately trained and supervised paraprofessional staff.
Eight in 10 confirmed breakdowns in the low TB area are primarily attributable to cattle movements. Building on our earlier funding to markets, we continue to urge keepers to take account of TB information when purchasing cattle. We understand not all keepers are offering such information, as demonstrated by the large number of high-risk movements during 2020. We also encourage membership of accreditation schemes, such as TB CHeCS, to promote herd health and give assurance to prospective purchasers.
In 2019, I announced a review of payments made to farmers for cattle slaughtered because of TB. This followed continued year-on-year overspends against the budget, loss of EU income and the need to encourage good farming practice. Options reviewed by the programme board are included in the consultation, and I urge farmers to respond.
A new task and finish group will consider the best ways of communicating with cattle keepers to help them protect their herds, and also throughout a TB breakdown. They will consider the potential role of TB champions in Wales. Farming and veterinary organisations have been approached to nominate members for this group, and I look forward to seeing their recommendations.
I will be phasing out the badger trap-and-test work in persistent herd breakdowns from this year. From an epidemiological perspective, the small sample size and short follow-up period provide limited meaningful results to gauge the impact of interventions on cattle TB. Work will be completed on existing farms, but new ones will not be recruited.
I am keen to explore further the contribution badger vaccination can make to our programme, assessing the most appropriate, cost effective deployment of the badger BCGvaccine. Badger vaccination has been part of our programme since 2012, first deployed in the intensive action area as part of a suite of measures. This has resulted in significant and sustained annual reductions in incidence and prevalence in the IAA. From 2014, we have supported private badger vaccination through a grant and part funded the industry-led initiative on the Gower peninsular. I congratulate Cefn Gwlad Solutions, which has undertaken a huge amount of work to successfully deliver this project.
Funding saved from phasing out the badger trap-and-test work will allow us to build on vaccination efforts, and I welcome the interest shown already in taking forward private projects. I am initially making an additional £100,000 available for expanding badger vaccination across Wales through the grant scheme. I also intend to continue the all-Wales badger-found-dead survey to increase our knowledge on the disease in badgers.
We continue supporting the development of a deployable cattle TB vaccine, with a test to differentiate infected from vaccinated animals to be in place by 2025. It is disappointing no Welsh farms are participating in the trials as yet, and I would encourage interest from the low TB area. Cattle vaccination has the potential to become a powerful tool in the battle against the disease, and we are engaging with the TB centre of excellence to plan its most appropriate deployment in Wales.
Collaboration and partnership working, taking ownership and recognising we all have a role to play are key to the success of our programme. Bovine TB has a devastating impact on the farming industry, with a huge emotional cost. We must do all we can to protect our cattle herds from this disease. I look forward to hearing your views on a refreshed TB eradication programme.

Samuel Kurtz MS: I would like to thank the Minister for giving me advance sight of today’s statement, and I refer to my register of interests. I’d like to begin, firstly, by paying tribute to our farmers across Wales for continuing to feed a nation even in the face of the physical, mental and economic stresses caused by bovine TB. Unfortunately, for some farmers, that continued battle against this horrific disease has been too much and they have taken their own lives. There is undeniably a seriousness to this situation that many outside of rural Wales will not fully understand nor indeed appreciate. Bovine TB casts a long shadow over our farming industry, acting as one of the main barriers to achieving a productive, progressive and profitable agricultural sector. A TB outbreak on a family farm impacts every aspect of that farm's ability to operate a viable business model. And so, we're not just discussing the tragic infection of cattle, but we also need to take into account the livelihoods that are at stake.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Minister, you mention in your statement a 48 per cent decrease in new TB incidents since 2009, but I'd be interested to know what the statistics say about the re-occurrence of the disease within infected herds and how many herds have been classified as TB free after a prolonged period of being under restrictions. Preventing new herds from catching the disease is important, but for those farmers who have long been under TB restrictions, they are the ones bearing the brunt of the economic and mental impact of the disease, and they must not be forgotten about. And whilst I'm grateful for your statement this afternoon, it does come after 13 years of policy that has made slow progress in achieving the ultimate goal of Wales being recognised as an officially TB-free region in the UK.
If I may, I'd like to touch on three specific points in responding to your statement: vaccines, testing and compensation. Your update on the progress Wales is making in establishing a vaccination scheme will, I'm sure, be cautiously welcomed by the sector. However, we must be honest with the agricultural industry: a vaccine will not stop the disease dead in its tracks. If the global pandemic has taught us anything, it's that, even with the common use of a vaccine, a disease can remain prevalent and be transmitted, even if at a lower number. A cattle vaccine will see farmers continue to combat the possible presence of bovine TB in their herd. Therefore, it's important that we aren't presenting the vaccine as the silver bullet to end bovine TB. However, it certainly can be another tool at our disposal. And whilst I welcome the news that the Welsh Government is going to continue to support the development of a deployable cattle TB vaccine, this mustn't hide the fact that we remain several years away from a viable programme—that's at least four years where TB continues to infect our cattle, killing off our livestock and damaging yet another generation of family businesses.
In order to mitigate this, we have to be innovative and ambitious in our testing regime. That means expanding upon the Welsh Government's current testing regime and optimising some of the industry alternatives that are currently available. We already know that the current Welsh Government-endorsed skin test provides false negatives, and this is noted in the refreshed TB eradication programme, as it states it is not possible to fully eliminate the risk of TB spreading through undetected infection. But, by improving testing, it will reduce the number of undetected infections. You mention in your statement that the new consultation will seek views on testing protocols, however no mention on the tests used. I'd like further information from you on the roll-out of these new tests, including Enferplex and IDEXX, to remove false negatives from skin-fold testing.
Finally, compensation. I was concerned to read that the TB payments budget has forecast a £7 million overspend by the end of this financial year. This is a budget that has seen overspend every year since 2015-16. Had the Welsh Government addressed bovine TB, tackled the root cause of the disease sooner, then the overspends would not have happened, as the disease would not have been allowed to spread into all four corners of Wales, seeing 10,000-plus cattle slaughtered in the last 12 months alone.
Minister, I reiterate that we must take strategic long-term decisions when it comes to tackling the impact of this disease. It is irresponsible to not properly fund the compensation scheme to farmers, complain about an overspend and look at ways of reducing payouts to compensate for loss of livestock rather than focus on sustainable ways to reduce the spread of the disease in the first place. I note with interest the three options that are being suggested by the Welsh Government, and, whilst any compensation scheme must reflect value for money for taxpayers, it is just as vital that we settle on a scheme that provides a fair and proportionate TB payment to cattle keepers. I await with interest the outcome of the consultation next spring, but I am worried that we are focusing on how much money can be saved rather than fixing the problem, which is bovine TB.
Minister, you make reference to TB champions in your statement. Could I ask you reconsider this phrasing, please? No-one wishes to champion such a deadly disease, which has caused so much turmoil to farmers across Wales.
Should we want to tackle bovine TB, we must seek to improve the quality of our testing regime, continue to invest in a vaccine roll-out project, and ensure that our farmers are fittingly supported. Minister, you're correct when you say collaboration and partnership are key, but this must be met with equal measures by Welsh Government. And so I urge you, let's not let another 13 years pass; let's work urgently with the industry to implement a full and comprehensive TB eradication strategy that rids Wales of this hideous disease in our cattle and wildlife once and for all. Diolch.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you very much to Sam Kurtz for those questions. It is a horrific disease, I absolutely agree with you, and it is vital that we work in partnership. I would never, ever present one thing within the toolbox as being—I don't like the phrase 'a silver bullet', but that was your phrase. But, it isn't, it is about a suite of measures, and certainly since the five years I've been in portfolio, I came to learn that very, very quickly. When you look at the science, there isn't one thing; if there were, how much easier life would be. There isn't. So, it is about making sure that the measures we have in place are absolutely correct.
You asked about statistics in your first question and certainly, looking at short-term trends, on 30 June this year, there were 81 fewer herds under movement restrictions compared with the previous year, so the previous 30 June 2020. I think it is really important that we don't read too much into short-term trends, as we do expect short-term fluctuations in the figures. So, I think it's really important that we do have a look at the figures, and I mentioned in my statement around the 48 per cent which you referred to.
I don't agree with you that there's been slow progress. I do think since we have had this programme we have made some significant progress, but of course if you're in a long-term breakdown—that is one over 18 months—that's of very small comfort to you, and I absolutely appreciate that. When we refreshed the programme four years ago, we brought in the bespoke action plans, which I think have helped some farmers. Not all farmers have welcomed it, but I certainly think it has helped them. But I do think it's now time for a refresh and, as you say, in the consultation, we have brought forward several things that we're going to look at, and I'm proposing that we change them.
In relation to the cattle vaccination that you referred to—as I say, I don't think there is any one thing, it has to be a combination—the aim is to have a deployable cattle TB vaccine with a test that can differentiate infected from vaccinated animals by 2025. Certainly, when I met with Professor Glyn Hewinson in the summer in Aberystwyth University, he was very excited about this because he said it's always been 10 years hence, and now it's four years, which I appreciate is quite a long time, but we are getting closer to that. I certainly think the UK Government are keen to have a cattle vaccination, and there is definitely an impetus now, I would say, across the UK.
I mentioned in my statement that I am disappointed there are no Welsh farms taking part in these trials, they are all English farms at the moment. Anything we can do to encourage farms from low TB areas to participate in these trials would be really good. Certainly, as a Government, we are working closely with DEFRA and the Scottish Government, and there have been about 20 years now of research into this vaccination, and I know the Welsh Government, way before my time, really led on this.
You asked about skin tests and testing in general. Certainly, the skin test is a long-established test and it's used worldwide. It's the main surveillance test in all, as far as I can see, TB controlled programmes, and it's likely to identify only one false positive animal in every 5,000 of non-infected cattle tested. I'm very keen to look at new testing, and I mentioned it's part of the consultation, and I really look forward to views coming forward around testing. There are tests that aren't validated yet, but again I know my officials have engaged with people around that. I think collectively we all want to improve testing, and this is a real opportunity now to have a look.
You mentioned the—I think it was the IDEXX antibody test specifically, which as you know is a blood test and it has to be performed between 10 and 30 days after a skin TB test. The high positivity rate in 2020 that we did see is likely to be the fact that we targeted that test, and of course then it's our higher risk animals. So, we have been using it, and the gamma test, in our TB hotspots in north Wales for the first time. So, it's interesting to see the results we are getting there.
In relation to compensation, again, I'm consulting on three options, and I hope you've had time to have a look at the consultation. We are consulting on three options. They've been recommended to me by the programme board. So, I was very keen to have the table valuations plus a top-up for being a member of an accreditation scheme, and then the TB levy. Those three options are set out in the consultation document.
You mentioned the overspend and you're right: it's a demand-led scheme, so, obviously—. I think, every year, we have oversubscribed for it, but, as a Government, we have a statutory duty to pay farmers for animals that have been slaughtered under the programme, and we always find that funding. I reprioritise, I redirect and I divert funding away from it, but we do need to reduce that funding—and, again, it is part of the consultation. So, again, I would urge Members to encourage farmers, certainly, and all their constituents, if they have an interest in this, to participate in the consultation.

Cefin Campbell MS: May I also thank the Minister for her statement? I will keep this quite brief because I don't want to rehearse many of the things that Sam Kurtz has already said that I happen to agree with.
Let me start by saying that bovine TB continues to have a destructive impact on agriculture in Wales, not only in terms of its economic impact, but also the emotional and mental health impact that the disease has, as we've already heard. So, clearly, we need a number of different approaches in dealing with this issue, based on local needs and disease status. We must manage the disease in wildlife too, as well as placing restrictions on the movement of animals and testing cattle.
I welcome the consultation, of course, and it's an opportunity for people to contribute on the basis of their expertise in this complex issue. I welcome the fact that there's been a reduction in the number of cases, but one also must realise that that is just one indicator alone.
You and the First Minister have said on a number of occasions that badger culling is not an option for you, so we have to concentrate on a different approach in working as effectively as possible, whilst reducing any inconvenience to farmers.
Now, what I would have liked to have seen in this statement is some kind of solution where you acknowledge that there has been an increase in TB cases in certain areas, referring specifically to north Wales, but we're familiar, over a period of 20 years, of areas where there have been spikes from time to time in terms of bovine TB.
In moving forward, I don't understand why there isn't a greater commitment here to vaccinate badgers in those areas that are problematic to us, and why not have a more systematic approach to testing badgers on farms where cases are consistently arising, and linking that to a local vaccination programme. That would have been welcomed, in my view. You referred to a vaccination programme in the Gower area; I would have liked to have heard more about the outcomes of that particular project.
You mention a 'toolkit of measures in hotspot areas'—well, once again, more detail as to what exactly that toolkit includes would be useful.
In terms of compensation, again, I agree entirely with the comments made by Sam Kurtz: cases of TB on farms impact every aspect of farming life—buying and selling livestock and so on. And in our view, the compensation arrangements do have to reflect the individual value of every animal, and only through having individual assessments can we achieve this. So, does the Minister accept that if an animal is not priced according to its own characteristics,then there is a risk of overcompensation or, on the other hand, undercompensation, something that would be very unfair for taxpayers and farmers alike?
But what is central to the statement is that if you are determined to press ahead with the current strategy, it's inevitable that we will see tens of thousands of cattle continue to be slaughtered over the next years, just as we have seen over 30,000 cattle slaughtered over the past three years, yes, 30,000, and the economic and emotional impact of that on farms and farmers.
And in returning to compensation, this inevitably will mean an increase in costs and there's a suggestion that you see this as being unsustainable. Whilst leaving the European Union and losing funds as a result of that could exacerbate the situation, does the Minister accept that it's the responsibility of the Government to balance the books in this area and that we shouldn't expect farmers to pay the bill for having a fair price for those cattle that do have to be slaughtered?

Cefin Campbell MS: And the last point, Minister, is around vaccination. Where vaccination is available, it has a role to play, clearly, in TB eradication, but it can only be used to prevent and not to cure the disease. Field trials with cattle TB vaccination, as you've already outlined, are under way, and you are hoping an effective vaccine will be available by 2025, so my question is: how confident are you we can achieve this goal, given the low number of farms that are currently participating in the trials?
And my final point is this: by ruling out other measures such as controlling the disease within the wildlife population, is the Minister accepting, therefore, that the Government is content with keeping the situation as static as it is currently for at least another three or four years, which won't reduce the emotional or financial burden on farmers one bit, or reduce the prevalence of the disease to the same extent we've seen in other countries? And my final point as well is the found-dead survey, in my opinion, is ineffective and rather ad hoc and doesn't teach us anything about this disease at all. Diolch yn fawr.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I'll start with the second final point around the survey, I don't—

Cefin Campbell MS: Sorry.

Lesley Griffiths AC: No, it's fine. I don't agree with you, I think it has given us some really good evidence, and it should be finishing in February next year, but I have committed to doing it for another two years, because I'm told by our advisers, by the chief veterinary officer and by the scientists that it is absolutely vital that we keep that work going, because they do think it's worthwhile.
But I thank you for your questions, and I do not want to keep it static, of course not, and one of the reasons for bringing in the targets back in 2017 and the regionalisation approach was to get that TB-free status as quickly as possible. Certainly, discussions I had, particularly when we were in the European Union, with people at European agricultural councils, et cetera, was that to achieve that the regionalisation approach would really help us. So, if you could have one area in Wales that could be declared TB-free, what a boost that would be to the rest of Wales. So, I was very keen to bring the regionalisation approach into the TB eradication programme back in 2017, and will certainly be keeping it.
You mentioned spikes in disease over the previous years. The reason I mentioned north Wales is because this is my annual update, and I appreciate, for the Member, this is the first one you have been in the Chamber for, but every year I do commit to a statement. So, whilst I'm also looking at a refresh of the TB eradication programme, because we haven't had one for four years, it is, actually, my annual statement, so that was the reason why I focused on that.
I am aware you're having a technical briefing with the chief veterinary officer, and I'm sure she will certainly be able to provide you with far more detail than I can in the short amount of time I've got got around the Gower project, but it's certainly been very encouraging, and we have used badger vaccination. It's been one of the things that we have had as part of our toolkit since 2012; it's been part of our programme, and it was first deployed, as I said in my original statement, in the IAA, as part of that suite of measures. And we did see a drop in the incidence and prevalence rates in the IAA. And, fortunately, that position has been sustained.
It is about having that suite of measures that I mentioned. And we have the testing regime, we have the vaccination regime, and I think it's really important to use that word 'partnership' again. And I'm really pleased—I met with the NFU last week, and they've got their own TB focus group now, and it was really encouraging to hear the progress they think they're making within that group. They've had the chief veterinary officer there to talk to them, they've met with Professor Glyn Hewinson to listen to his views, and it's great to have that ownership, and I think it's really important that we continue to work in partnership, because we can't do it on our own and they can't do it on their own; it's about working together. It's also about improved biosecurity, good husbandry, and, of course, we have Cymorth TB, which we fund, and that seeks to provide practical support to our farmers, to our herd keepers who are affected by TB. They provide bespoke veterinary interventions at different stages during the breakdown. I am going to ask the task and finish group that I've announced today to have a look at how we do engage with our farmers and our herd keepers to see what we can do to improve that engagement, to show that it is absolutely a partnership, and I very much recognise that.
We also work very closely with other Welsh Government departments to offer business continuity advice to farmers and, importantly, their families, because it's not just the farmer, is it, who is impacted; it's the whole family that are suffering in a TB breakdown. And I really would strongly encourage farmers and their vets to take advantage of that bespoke Government-funded veterinary advice programme and for farmers to speak to their private vets about it too, and about how they can access it. And, again, the future of Cymorth TB and any other initiatives that we have will be included within the remit of the task and finish group, and I will ask them to look at that.
Around your questions in relation to compensation, no, it's for Welsh Government to balance the books. It's my job to make sure I have that funding. I don't expect the farmers to have any part in that. It is absolutely our statutory duty. However, what I do expect is, if someone thinks—. So, the bar now is £5,000, so if you think you've got cattle that are worth more than that, then you should look at insurance. I think that's very important to do.
The cattle vaccination, as I said in my answer to Sam, is, I think, within reach now—three, four years and I think we will have it. You mentioned there is a low number of farms, and I mentioned there were no Welsh farms, and I really would encourage Welsh farms to participate in the trial, because I want to be part of it. As I say, I work with DEFRA and I work with the Scottish Government, and there are many farms in England involved in the trial, but what I really want to see are some Welsh farms as part of those trials.

Joyce Watson AC: Thank you for your annual update, Minister. As the chief veterinary officer notes in the foreword to the consultation document, the eradication programme was always a long road and the long-term trends remain positive. We've allowed the science to navigate and our key stakeholders—farmers, vets and representative bodies—to drive that forward. Successive Welsh Labour Governments have been flexible in adapting the delivery plan, but we did draw a line at badger culling, and I'm proud that the Welsh Government's programme for government forbids the culling of badgers to control the spread of TB in cattle. The UK Government, by contrast, will only start phasing out badger culling in England next year. The Wildlife Trusts estimate that, by the time it ends, 300,000 out of an estimated population of 485,000 badgers may have been killed, wiping out populations in areas they had inhabited since the ice age.
But back to today's statement and back to that long road that you mention—and there has been plenty of talk here this afternoon about the cattle vaccination trial. And, as you said, an effective cattle TB vaccine would be a hugely powerful tool. You've mentioned also that it's only one part of the toolbox. So, I share your disappointment about the lack of participation by Welsh farmers. I'm assuming that you have discussed that with farming unions, and it would be very useful if you could give any update on that, either now or in the near future. Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. So, in relation to your comments around our programme for government commitment that we will not permit the culling of badgers as part of the measures to deal with bovine TB, recent scientific studies have not provided conclusive evidence that culling badgers would reduce incidence levels in cattle herds. And you mentioned England, which have killed a huge number of badgers, but now they're withdrawing and backing down from that. And I do think the emphasis on cattle vaccination, which I very much welcome, is because the UK Government are looking at what alternatives they have. And if you look at the areas where they have culled badgers, they still have bovine TB. So, I think that is a very important point.
I have raised the lack of farms—well, no farms—participating in Wales in the trials with both the NFU and the FUW, and I mentioned in my earlier answer to Cefin Campbell that the chief veterinary officer had attended NFU's TB focus group and it was raised there, and I'm sure they will do all they can to encourage farms in the low TB area to participate.

Sam Rowlands MS: Thank you, Minister, for today's statement. Minister, as you will be aware, farms throughout north Wales play a huge role in supporting our local economy, communities and indeed our food chain. Many farmers that I've met with in recent months alongside the NFU have raised their concerns of the bovine TB eradication programme simply not being robust enough and not doing enough to deal with the root cause of the problem. And this concern links to the spikes in cases in north Wales, something you've acknowledged in your statement today and something which Mr Campbell referred to earlier in his contribution. Of course, we know the prospect of having to slaughter entire herds of cattle following a TB outbreak is a very real concern for farmers in my region, and, although compensation is available, it does not make up for the business disruption, which could make a farm unviable, let alone the emotional strain on hard-working farmers. So, Minister, what focused support will you provide to farmers in north Wales where spikes in TB have been experienced and how will you work with those farmers to ensure business disruption is kept as low as possible? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, and I did refer to the spikes that we've, unfortunately, had, and I certainly was extremely concerned to see that, because I mentioned about the targets that we've set to be bovine TB free. The low TB areas were obviously very important as part of that.
There were the three spikes in Conwy, Denbighshire and Pennal, and we've been working with them. We've introduced enhanced measures, testing et cetera, and we continue to work with them. But I think, again, it's really important to note that eight out of 10 of those outbreaks in those spikes were due to movement of cattle, so it's important that we continue to work, that farmers access that support, that it's available, that guidance and advice that's available, going forward.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you for your statement, Minister. I wasn't really intending to respond to the statement, but I've been sitting here listening intently to what you've had to say, and, fundamentally, nothing has changed, has it, really? You could have delivered that statement 10 years ago, and, in the meantime, of course, we're still culling 10,000 cattle every year. It really smacks of contentment with the situation. So, come on, let's be brave here. Let's be radical. Let's bite the bullet and stop going around in circles. Isn't it time this Government stepped up to the mark and really confronted the issue of TB in wildlife? Because, if you don't, then I bet we'll be back here in another 12 months when you deliver your next annual statement. And do you know what? It'll be 10 years all over again.

Lesley Griffiths AC: So, I fundamentally disagree with probably everything that Llyr Huws Gruffydd said. You talk about wildlife and, absolutely, if you look in the bespoke action plans, one of the the areas that we specifically said we would target with the herds that were in long-term breakdown was the wildlife. And if you look at the bespoke action plans that we brought forward—and I'm trying to remember the percentage, but it's a significant number—wildlife did not play any part in that breakdown. And one of the reasons I'm stopping the test and trap—sorry, the trap and test—of badgers in bespoke action plans in the long-term breakdown is because it really hasn't proved popular. Some farmers didn't want us to do that, and I think that money is better spent on vaccinating badgers. So, I absolutely agree with you about that we must do things, and one of the things we're doing—and I've announced the extra £100,000 today, because that is proving to be very beneficial.

Laura Anne Jones AC: As a farmer's daughter, Minister, I've seen first-hand the devastating impact that bovine TB has had on farmers and our rural communities, and I have to agree with Llyr; it literally feels like groundhog day to me in this Senedd. I stood here responding to a very similar statement back in 2003, hearing very, very similar arguments, and yet I stand here today and I've noted that hardly anything has changed, Minister. It's just not good enough. There has been no substantial progress made at all, and Wales is crying out for a proper solution to bovine TB.
It baffles me, this Government's inherent lack of understanding of our rural communities and what they need. You can use the stats, as we've said today, to back up either side of the argument today, but what faces us all is that there's still a very real problem when it comes to bovine TB. Eleven thousand cattle are being slaughtered per annum for TB control. This is clearly not sustainable, that cattle are slaughtered in these numbers year on year. Vaccinations for badgers, which you seem to think is an answer to this, is too open to supply issue problems and high costs, and doesn't actually, as my colleague Sam Kurtz said earlier, cure the animal of the disease. It isn't a silver bullet, and there's obviously a whole host of things that need to be done collectively in order to tackle bovine TB, as you outlined earlier.
There has been talk of a vaccine for cattle for nearly 30 years now, Minister. I'm very, very pleased to hear you say that progress is finally being made and we seem to be getting somewhere on that, but you said, and I quote, 'I think we'll have it in the future.' 'I think we'll have it'—so, there's no concrete timeline at all. I just wonder if you could give us something a bit more substantial on that, because it is exciting, because that would, I think, make a real difference.
Across the border in England they've been piloting culling badgers recently in certain areas, with a 66 per cent reduction in TB in Gloucestershire;a 37 per cent reduction in TB in Somerset. The First Minister's ruled out culling whilst he's in charge, apparently, but the results are there, Minister. It's working. We have talked and talked and talked, have consulted, consulted, consulted in this Chamber, Minister, but Wales needs hard action. Surely, looking at the results across the border, culling has to form part of the solution now, as we cannot leave the wildlife reservoir unaddressed any longer.

Lesley Griffiths AC: You missed out the word 'collectively'—we need to do this collectively. You seem to be laying all blame at the Welsh Government's feet, and that's absolutely not the case. I specifically said we have to do this in partnership. I haven't got all the answers, Welsh Government hasn't, and farmers haven't either, and it's really important they work collectively.
I didn't say I think we will have it in the future—I said I think we will have it in 2025, and one of the reasons I think we will have it in 2025—and, again, I said, if you'd been listening—is that Welsh Government has really led on the research in relation to that—way before my time, I'm not taking any credit, but Welsh Government has. But DEFRA are now taking a keen interest, and one of the reasons DEFRA are taking a keen interest, in my view, is because they don't think that culling has worked. So, if—you know, you're quoting figures at me. Why are they stopping culling? If it's so successful, why are England backing down and not carrying on with their culling? Why are they looking for something different to do? The reason is because they still have TB in the areas that you just referred to.
So, this TB eradication programme has now gone out to consultation, it's now there for people to put their views to it. I forget who said they didn't think it was robust enough; I think it might have been Llyr. I think it's important now that we hear people's views. But I never said any one thing was—. As I say, I really don't like the phrase 'silver bullet', I'm using the words that you as Conservatives are using, but there isn't one. If there was one, we would have all found it by now, wouldn't we?
One of the things I do think will help is a mandatory informed purchasing system. Certainly, it worked in New Zealand. They tell me that was probably the one thing that worked the best—so, again, out to consultation on that. We gave grant funding and, unfortunately, I don't think markets are providing that information, or maybe it's the purchasers who aren't providing it to the markets so that everybody can make that informed purchase.

And finally, James Evans.

James Evans MS: Diolch, Llywydd. There's a close friend of mine who has had their business decimated by TB; I'll just put that as an interest.
Minister, Labour's TB eradication programme has been established for some years, with a long-term goal of eradicating bovine TB. Yet, in Wales, things are not improving, they're getting worse, because you will not take the steps that are needed to tackle the root cause of the problem in infected wildlife. That wildlife has no natural predators in this country. Bovine TB has become a massive industry in its own right, employing vast amounts of civil servants and costing the taxpayer millions of pounds each year. We're now seeing cows in calf and heifers being slaughtered on the yard, whilst the unborn calf inside them kicks out while choking to death. It's not a pleasant experience for anybody to witness and the mental strain that puts on our farmers is huge.
So, Minister, will you look again at this part of the legislation to allow flexibility to allow calves, if that's wanted, to be born and tested after the mother has given birth? And, also, will you and this Government take the bold steps that need to be taken to address bovine TB in Wales and stop many farming families across our country being devastated by mental health and emotional loss because of bovine TB in Wales? We've been talking about a vaccine for bovine TB since the early 2010s. It's still not here. Please, Minister, please get on with the job, and let's deliver a vaccine and actually something that eradicates TB in Wales.

Lesley Griffiths AC: So, again, I don't think the Member's been listening because I've mentioned several times that we are working with DEFRA, with the Scottish Government, to bring forward a cattle vaccination. And, again, I mention that Glyn Hewinson always said to me he thought it was 10 years in advance, and he really believes, because DEFRA have now put emphasis on this, that we will have it by 2025. But, again, that won't be the one thing; it needs to be a suite of things. The TB eradication programme has brought improvement. I mentioned the figures in my statement. People don't seem to want to accept statistics, so I won't say it again.
Regarding on-farm slaughter, I absolutely agree with you how distressing that can be. I had representations made to me from the industry, and I thought it was really important that we looked to find a solution for on-farm slaughter. And we piloted—and you might be aware of this—farm euthanasia of TB cattle by a lethal injection. It did prove to be very difficult to deliver practically on the farm. You had to co-ordinate vet and haulier presence. There were some farmers who found that even more distressing, they told me, and they preferred to have their cattle shot. So, again, I think it is something that is down to personal choice for the farmer.
I also found that the pilot did cause delays in removing infected cattle. Of course, we know of the importance of doing that. So, we stopped the pilot after some consideration—I think it was in the summer of last year. I looked at England and what they were doing and they didn't seem to have the same issues that we did, but I think it's because they have extended the react-to-removal time. I think that's contrary to disease control, and certainly that was the advice that I was given by the chief veterinary officer. But I'm very open to look at what we can do, because I absolutely agree with you, that must be one of the most distressing things for a farmer.

I thank the Minister.

4. Statement by the Deputy Minister for Climate Change: COP26

The next item therefore is the statement by the Deputy Minister for Climate Change on COP26. And I call on the Minister to make a statement. Lee Waters.

Lee Waters AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Ahead of the United Nations Climate Change Conference, the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change said that the latest data signals a code red for humanity. This year, Canada registered its highest ever temperature, shattering the previous record by around 5 full degrees. It rained rather than snowed for the first time at the peak of the Greenland ice sheet.
Closer to home, we've seen the severe impact of heavy rain, resulting in increased flash flooding. Climate change is not just a problem we will face in 2050; it's a problem we face now. As the Met Office has told us, because of carbon emissions already in the atmosphere, sea level rises of 0.5m are already locked in. And according to Professor Richard Betts, the Met Office chief scientist, we are facing sea levels rises of a metre in the next 80 years based on current policies.

Lee Waters AC: Llywydd, we have rightly declared a climate emergency and we now need to act accordingly. We have seen some progress in responding to the scale of the challenge. This Senedd agreed in March to change our legislative targets. Wales now has a net-zero target and, just a few weeks ago, we published our Net Zero Wales plan—a credible, practical way of driving down carbon emissions over the next five years, setting us on the path to a stronger, fairer and greener future.
We brought forward our plan, even though we faced delays in the advice we've received from the UK Climate Change Committee, because we wanted to go to COP with a credible plan, setting out Wales's commitment to play our part. COP26 needed to be a pivotal moment, not just for Wales but globally. It was the fifth summit since the Paris agreement in 2015, and the first reckoning on the world’s collective ambition and action to tackle climate change. This means action both on emissions, but also on adaptation and how we support developing countries to deal with the consequences of wildfires, droughts, storm surges, flooding and rising sea levels.
The Welsh Government was an active presence throughout the COP summit, as part of the UK delegation. I know many other Members of the Senedd were also in Glasgow, representing our Parliament. And I hope their experiences were as challenging and inspiring as mine and Julie James's were. We heard directly from the Guarani people in the rainforest of Brazil, and from the Wampis people in Peru. Their forests capture the equivalent of all Welsh emissions on an annual basis. We were both struck by the challenges they face as their homes and cultures are threatened by farmers and loggers, in direct response to consumer demand from our countries and others. And the message from COP is that we need to change.
Throughout the summit, we engaged with young people and were inspired by their determination and their outrage. We exchanged notes with leaders from places such as Sao Paulo, Quebec, and California, sharing the lessons we have learned and exchanging insights. Amongst many memorable encounters, the First Minister spoke bilaterally with the Governor of Louisiana, who has tens of thousands of people living in hotel rooms after hurricane Aida. He took the opportunity to use our membership of the well-being economy network to ensure that transition to a greener future is one with people at its heart. I met with Jenipher Sambazifrom Mbale in Uganda, who is an inspirational example of how women are leading the way in fighting climate change, and supporting their communities to make them resilient for the future.
We also played our part in encouraging others to step up and take action. Our active membership in networks such as RegionsAdapt and the Under2 Coalition is a key mechanism for this. In 2015, Wales was a founding member of the Under2 Coalition, which has now grown to bring together 260 governments, representing 50 per cent of the global economy and some 1.75 billion people. Focused at the so-called sub-national level, the coalition offers us a chance to engage and connect with, and to learn from and be inspired by, nations worldwide. The group is particularly important where the national governments are reluctant to take difficult decisions, or action is slow. For example, while President Trump was in power, and he took America out of the Paris agreement, the coalition that we helped create allowed dozens of states to stay connected to the global climate change agenda and make progress. In times of global adversity and change, the role of the state and regional governments is even more important as so much of the change needed is at a local level.
Likewise, I was proud that we were part of the Beyond Oil and Gas Alliance, which was launched at the summit, led by Costa Rica and Denmark, which is the European Union's largest oil producer. We were the only UK nation to be part of the 10 core membership. And I think, by creating momentum, we will help others to join in that alliance to show a practical way forward. Regardless of the outcomes at COP it is something that we can do.
As part of her programme, the Minister for Climate Change attended the Under2 Coalition general assembly, where we looked at how we could increase our outreach, prioritise action and further share and learn from one another. For example, we are working through partnerships such as south Australia’s net-zero emission policy forum, which looks at accelerating the transition to net zero. At the assembly, she emphasised the need for a fair and just transition, leaving no one and no place behind as we move to a greener future. She also spoke about how we are supporting the Future Fund, which enables voices to be heard at events such as COP, and how we are committed to working with others, such as the Scottish Government, through the Financing a Just Transition Alliance.
Now that COP26 has drawn to a close, I want to draw the Senedd’s attention both to what has been achieved as well as, crucially, the next steps. There was genuine progress made on methane, on global finance and to start shifting countries beyond coal, oil and gas. But we have far more to do to stimulate the ambition and the action needed to avoid catastrophic global warming in the lifetimes of our children. This Government is committed to taking the action needed to play our fair role on the global stage, and I encourage Senedd Members to join in that commitment. Diolch.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

Conservative spokesperson, Janet Finch-Saunders.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you, Deputy Minister for your statement. I'm sure though that you would want to join with me in congratulating COP26 president, Alok Sharma, for what has been a successful global event. I think, it's fair to say, there was some nail biting on his part towards the very end. But we have to be realistic, and the world was on course for a devastating 4 degrees of warming this century. After Paris, we were heading for 3 degrees and, following Glasgow, we are now facing 1.8 degrees. However, as the Rt Hon Boris Johnson MP, our Prime Minister, has stated, that's still far too high. In fact, Prime Minister Mia Mottley has advised that for Barbados and other small island states 2 degrees is a death sentence. So, we must, as you conclude, do more and stick to promises, so to keep the goal of restricting the growth of temperatures to 1.5 degrees alive. Thankfully, the Glasgow climate pact will speed up the pace of climate action, and all countries, of course, have agreed to revisit and strengthen their own current emission targets to 2030 next year.
During carbon budget 2 we need to achieve a 37 per cent average reduction, with a 0 per cent offset limit. Now, modelling shows that we are on track to achieve a 44 per cent reduction against the baseline, but we could go further and we could go faster. We agree on the need to increase renewable energy developments, and I do welcome your deep dive. You are planning to consider short, medium and long-term steps. So, can I ask that, in light of COP26, you will aim to outline as many short-term steps as possible, so to faster action on more renewables?
New nuclear has a crucial role to play in providing reliable, affordable low-carbon energy, as Britain works to reduce its dependency on fossil fuel. Last week, the UK Government backed small nuclear technology with £210 million. This will help us to move forward phase 2 of the low-cost nuclear project, and take it through the regulatory processes to assess the sustainability of potential deployment in the UK. Wales, however, can play a key role at Wylfa and Trawsfynydd. So, will you provide an update on Cwmni Eginoand work that you are undertaking to see these small modular reactors in Wales?
Road transport accounts for over 10 per cent of global greenhouse gas emissions, and the total emissions are rising faster than any other sector. During COP, the Zero Emission Vehicles Transition Council outlined its action plan for 2022, which does include setting out a collective vision for global charging infrastructure. We've only one rapid charging point in Snowdonia National Park, not a single rapid charging point in Dwyfor Meirionnydd, yet the Welsh Government is only aiming to deliver 50 rapid charging points on the 1,000 miles of trunk road network of Wales by 2025. Transport accounted for 17 per cent of Welsh emissions in 2019, and is our largest—third largest, I beg your pardon—greenhouse gas emitting sector. So, will you be reviewing the action the Welsh Government plans to take on delivering charging points?
COP26 also saw the global action agenda on transforming agricultural innovation. The UK backs this and the four initiatives, including the Global Research Alliance on Agricultural Greenhouse Gases initiative, which brings countries together to find ways to grow more food without growing greenhouse gas emissions. Rather than the Welsh Government positionfor carbon budget 2, which states that your ambition is to, for example, see a substantial decrease in red meats and dairy products over the next 20 years, will you, Deputy Minister, acknowledge the findings by Bangor University that Welsh sheep and beef farms using non-intensive methods have among the lowest greenhouse gas emissions of comparable systems globally, and look to see how you, in your position in the Welsh Government, can back Welsh meat and the green way in which it is produced globally, especially with the new contacts you have made recently whilst in Glasgow? Thank you.

Lee Waters AC: Thank you for those questions. I certainly agree that Alok Sharma did a good job in taking COP through its paces in reaching an agreement—not one that we all would have wanted to see, but, nonetheless, an agreement that takes us forward, though it did fail the ambition of the Prime Minister to keep 1.5 degrees alive, which is no flippant thing to be set aside. Janet Finch-Saunders mentioned that we are facing warming of 1.8 degrees. Just so that we are clear, at 1.8 degrees most of the world's coral reef will be destroyed and the ecosystem that relies upon that will similarly be destroyed. That then begins to unleash knock-on effects, and the danger of creating tipping points, because we simply do not know—we have modelling, but we do not know at which points these thresholds become triggered, and it's far more likely we're going to see spikes and far more dangerous weather, storms, droughts, which will have catastrophic effects not just around the world, but in Wales.
So, 1.8 degrees is not good enough, and the UK Met Office chief scientist said at the presentation I attended that based on current policies, we are heading towards a 4 degree warming by the end of the century. And just to be clear, that is the end of human existence as we know it. So, these are not stats that we can throw around lightly like we might in other policy debates. The consequences of this will be devastating if we do not manage to achieve more than we have at COP.
She mentioned that we need to achieve a 37 per cent reduction by the end of carbon budget 2. That requires all of us in this Chamber not just to sign up to the targets, but to sign up to the consequences of those targets. So, we announced a roads review. As uncomfortable as that it, that is part of the suite of the measures that we need to implement, and Members in this Chamber, despite what they say today, need to show leadership and courage when it comes to supporting the follow-on consequences of these emergencies that we are willing to endorse.
She asked specifically about Cwmni Egino. We are setting that up, and we're looking at the case for including renewables within that as well, because we are committed to setting up a public sector-owned and led renewables company, and we're considering the case for pooling that expertise.
In terms of short-term actions she asked about, she mentioned the deep dive we've done on trees, what we're currently doing on renewables, the roads review itself and developing tougher building regulations. Those are just a small number of things we've done in the last six months since this department was established, and there's much more we need to do. The pace of change needs to be kept up.
She asked about the existence of rapid charging points, and she is right. As the take-up of electric vehicles scales up significantly, so will the charging infrastructure we need to match that. We've set out a strategy just recently setting out what we're doing, which we think helps us keep pace. It's not just the job of the Welsh Government to put in place the charging infrastructure; it's a job for the private sector as well. As I keep mentioning, the Welsh Government doesn't provide petrol stations, nor should we be expected to provide the bulk of the charging infrastructure. We do need to look at an outside-in model so that those areas least likely to be served by the market are served well. And we have announced fresh funding again for the ultra-low emissions vehicle fund.
Finally, on meat, clearly, the UK Climate Change Committee sets a pathway for reducing meat consumption, and it's not just meat produced in our country. Yes, Janet Finch-Saunders is right that Welsh meat has comparatively lower emissions than meats from other countries, but as I mentioned with the experience of the indigenous people of Peru and Brazil, the cheap meat that we buy in from South America is the meat that is driving the demand for soy that is leading to destruction of the rainforest, which is not then there to sequester the carbon that we need sequestered in order to keep global levels down. So, on meat, overall, the consumption does need to come down. And as I've said consistently, I think there is a case for eating less meat, but that the meat we do eat is Welsh meat, is local meat, is higher quality meat. In all of these things, all of the changes required are difficult and uncomfortable for us, but we cannot afford to duck this challenge.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Delyth Jewell.

Delyth Jewell AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'd like to thank the Deputy Minister for his statement. What was agreed at COP fell far below the drastic action needed, and while I would add my voice to those praising Alok Sharma for his valiant attempts to forge a consensus, Boris Johnson should surely be condemned for making his job so difficult. At a time when the Prime Minister of the host state should have been devoting all his energy into persuading world leaders to agree to measures they didn't want but that the planet needs, Johnson spent the fortnight dealing with a domestic sleaze scandal of his own making. And if that wasn't enough, he went further by ratcheting up tensions with the EU over the Northern Ireland protocol as the conference was happening, needlessly alienating our allies when we needed them most. If he had meant a single word he said in his speech to open COP26, he would have spent his entire time building bridges rather than burning them—'burning' being the apposite word, Minister.
A PM with a plan, or even just an attention span, would have heard alarm bells ringing when the US and China agreed a bipartisan deal during the conference to phase down the use of coal—a deal that, ultimately and arguably, gave India political cover to lead the effort to undermine the hard-won inclusion of the commitment to phase coal out completely at the very last minute. Alok Sharma's tears when this became apparent symbolise the dashed hopes of countless billions. Ending the burning of coal is essential for keeping warming under 1.5 degrees. For a brief moment, it looked as if life on earth had secured a long-term future. That future is still there to be won, and even though we've suffered another setback, the fight will continue. One important concession, Minister, that was agreed, was that countries will return with amendments next year and in 2023. Since the UK's presidency still has a year to run, I'd be grateful if you'd give some details about how the Welsh Government will use its membership of the Beyond Oil and Gas Alliance to push this agenda over the next 12 months. That is a membership that we in Plaid Cymru welcome.
Turning to areas where the Welsh Government has direct control, you've spoken already about renewable energy development and the deep dive that you are doing, Minister. If you could please provide an update on that, I'd be grateful. Reducing carbon dioxide emissions is of course the only way to prevent runaway climate change and to keep earth habitable. You've been saying, Minister, about how to actually follow plans through as they might ratchet up would actually mean the end of humanity. You've already been saying, in your response to Janet Finch-Saunders, about some of the difficult decisions that we need to make. As a small, agile nation, it is of course crucial that Wales plays its part, since so many of the emissions of nations on the other side of the planet produce those emissions actually because of our habits in terms of consumption. You've been talking about meat and soy, Minister. Could I ask you to outline your plan to reduce consumption emissions and reduce Wales's global carbon footprint?
Finally, I'd like to turn to the matter of mitigation. You've acknowledged publicly that the consequences of not acting on global warming after COP26 will be profound for Wales. Experts in Wales have warned that extreme weather events will threaten lives and will make people poorer. We face increased flooding, coastal erosion, and potentially more destabilised coal tips. I noted that the Chair of Natural Resources Wales said in a recent article that, regrettably, it has often taken major events to force us to reflect on how prepared we really are for more extreme weather. He was talking in relation to flood defences. Since we now know that we aren't on track to keep warming under 1.5 degrees, I think there's a case for the Welsh Government to revisit strategies such as the flooding and coastal erosion plan, as well as our approach to coal tips, which is a matter I've raised with you a number of times, to ensure that they're strong enough to meet the scale of the challenge. We need to be innovative and to build on best practice to mitigate the climate crisis. So, could you commit, please, to bringing forward completed, robust and costed climate change mitigation schemes in the near future? Thank you very much.

Lee Waters AC: Thank you for that series of questions. In terms of the Beyond Oil and Gas Alliance, it has literally been less than a week since it was created, and I think it's important that we send the signal that we are part of that as a country that was there at the beginning of the industrial revolution, and signal that we think that fossil fuels do not play a part in our future. It began with 10 members of different degrees of membership—California, for example, is an associate member and we are a core member. And just as I mentioned in my statement the other alliances that we've been part of building over the years, which have now grown, we hope the same will happen with the Beyond Oil and Gas Alliance. We've had some informal conversations with the Scottish Government already to help them understand what the membership process involves. We hope, by the example we have shown, that this will grow to be a significant alliance.
I thought, in a week, certainly in the second week of talk, where there was not a great deal of tangible progress for much of it, this alliance was a signal of hope of what Governments can do regardless of COP. Because I think we need to make a distinction between the COP process, which is international negotiation, which, by definition, moves at the pace of the slowest, and our net-zero commitment, which exists regardless of the COP process. We have committed, in law, as has the UK Government, to achieve net zero by 2050 at the latest; we don't need COP to happen to deliver on that, we all need to focus on what we need to do and not be slowed down by others who are finding it more difficult to match our commitments.
The deep dive on renewables is at the mid point. I'll be delivering a statement to the Senedd on 7 December setting out the initial conclusions. As with the tree deep dive, I've brought together a range of different perspectives and we've published the terms of reference and the membership. We're also supplementing that by holding a series of round-tables. We had a very good round-table with industry representatives and we have another round-table imminent with non-governmental organisations. With the group itself, we are systematically identifying what barriers there are to significant scale-up of renewables, and also, crucially, how we can capture value in Wales. What I don't want to do is to repeat the previous industrial revolutions where our economic wealth has been exported and extracted by interests outside of Wales; I want this time to make sure that our wealth is captured locally. And that is challenging, but that absolutely has to be at the heart of our approach, so we don't repeat the mistakes of the past.
On coal tips, she rightly illustrates that these are now very vulnerable, given that we know the climate change that is locked in. We are bitterly disappointed that the UK Government, despite initially showing joint leadership on this agenda, seems to have entirely abdicated its role, has not funded the remediation of coal tips in the budget settlement, and is simply leaving us to get on with this, even though these coal tips are a legacy of our industrial past and existed pre devolution. We think it is only right that the UK Government accepts joint ownership of this problem and works with us. It has failed to do that, so we are now left with a real problem, both practically and financially, of dealing with this legacy that they seem to have walked away from, preferring instead to sprinkle little pots of money to get themselves positive coverage in politically friendly parts of the country, rather than facing up to their role as part of the union.
In terms of mitigation and adaptation, she is absolutely right, we do need to be constantly reviewing our plans to deal with the climate change we know that is locked in, and that is work that is ongoing.

Mike Hedges AC: I welcome the statement and the opportunity to question the Minister. COP26 was a disappointment; I think everybody is of that view. When you saw the number of planes landing, it was easy to see that it was not going to be a success. Too many countries put short-term economic benefit before both the environment and their long-term economic benefit. I always thought that if people saw the results of climate change, they would demand action. Too many consider major weather events as just bad luck, rather than the inevitable consequence of climate change. We cannot change COP26. What we can do is, in Wales, act as an example to the rest of the world. Will the Minister commit to working towards making Wales an example to the world on what can be done to reduce carbon emissions? Will the Government support, post COVID, the Senedd continuing to meet in a hybrid manner, thus reducing our own carbon footprint? Will the Government produce a strategy not only for the change in the mode of transport used but an annual reduction in the miles travelled?

Lee Waters AC: Thank you to Mike Hedges for those comments. I do think Walesis already an example to the world in many of the actions that we are currently taking. Certainly, one thing that's struck me, and Members will know that I'm not somebody who's uncritical of our own Government's performance—what was very striking was the way that Wales was being held up throughout COP by other countries of a similar size and regions of larger countries as an example of a country that was taking action and provided inspiration to others, whether that be on recycling levels or indeed on our roads review, which has gained significant international interest. So, I think we already are taking action that is providing an example to others, and we need to continue to do that.
On his point about hybrid working, the Welsh Government does have a target of 30 per cent remote working for precisely that reason. We want to make sure that the benefits that were gained during the COVID lockdown of reduced emissions from people working from home are not lost as we move back to near normal. So, it's important that all businesses and the public sector look to see how hybrid working can become normal, and I would hope and expect the Senedd to be part of that.
On his final point, I only half scribbled the note and I've now forgotten what it was—apologies. Feel free to—

Mike Hedges AC: Annual reduction in miles travelled.

Lee Waters AC: Thank you very much. Absolutely, our net-zero plan for Wales includes an annual reduction in miles driven of 10 per cent over the five-year period, which is going to be a very challenging target to meet. We put that in there knowing it is a stretch target. We haven't got a fully worked up plan, frankly, of how we're going to achieve it. We know how we're going to achieve about 60 per cent of it. The Scottish Government have given themselves a target of a 20 per cent reduction in miles driven, which I am in awe of their boldness. I didn't think it was terribly prudent to commit to something that far beyond what we knew we could achieve. Going to a 10 per cent reduction is flying in the face of 70 years of transport policy and is going to be a challenge. We have set out in the Wales transport strategy the actions that we will take to move in that direction. They will be difficult, but we need to face up to them, because that absolutely is a key part of meeting our commitment to net zero. Because if we don't achieve in the next five years, we will not be on the trajectory to achieve them by 2050.

Gareth Davies AS: Thank you very much for your statement, this afternoon, Deputy Minister. It was really good to see you up in Glasgow last week for COP26, and I believe you met my counterpart in Westminster, Dr James Davies, so that was really nice to see.

Mike Hedges AC: Possibly not.

Lee Waters AC: We had a nice chat.

Gareth Davies AS: Don't be so negative. [Laughter.]
While I don't share the opinion expressed by some that COP26 was a cop out, I do fear that the watering down of the pledges will see my constituents indeed facing a watery future. As some of the world's worst polluters continue their reliance on coal, we will experience rising temperatures and rising sea levels. Deputy Minister, you've made it clear that you see a coal-free future for Wales. I don't mean to sound crass or insensitive about some of the questions I'm about to ask, as they play a major part in the Welsh economy.
So, what discussions have you had with one of the biggest users of coals and one of the biggest polluters in Tata Steel? Do you want to abandon virgin steel production in Wales, closing down the blast furnaces in favour of electric arc furnaces, recycling scrap steel, and have you convinced the unions of the need to abandon coal? And finally, Deputy Minister, what role do you see carbon capture and storage playing in Wales's greener future and will your Government be investing in technology? Thank you very much.

Lee Waters AC: Thank you very much, and indeed I was pleased to meet with the MP James Davies amongst many others at COP. There was a good Welsh presence at the conference.
He makes mention to some of the world's worst polluters, well of course we are amongst the world's worst polluters. Let us be clear, those of us in the G20 are the countries that have contributed to this problem, and those currently facing the most immediate short-term impacts from climate change, more severely than ours, are those who've contributed the least to climate change. So, there is a moral obligation as well as a self-interested obligation on us to act. But let us be under no illusion about our culpability in the problem as well. It's not simply China or Brazil or India, we as the UK are part of the problem and we need to transition from that, and as we do it, it must be a just transition. Steel production is a really interesting example. Clearly, we will still need steel, even beyond 2050. To produce wind turbines or electric cars, you need steel. We need to find a way of producing steel that has the minimal negative environmental impact.
There is work going on in south Wales, through the south Wales industrial cluster—industry-led, working with the Welsh Government and the UK Government together—to try and find technological solutions to the problems, and to try and reduce the carbon footprint of these heavily polluting but important industries. That is a dilemma for us, and it's not an easy transition, but it is one that we absolutely have to confront.
In terms of carbon capture and storage, I am sceptical of the impact that that can play because, at the moment, it is an unproven technology. There are some trials to show that it can work. It has not been demonstrated to work at scale. The thing that I worry about in the UK Government's net-zero plan is that it relies heavily on the assumption that these technologies will work at scale within 10 years. That has yet to be proven, and I don't think that we should be betting the farm on the fact that technological fixes are going to deliver the carbon reductions that we need to see.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I'd like to applaud the Welsh Government's leadership on this issue. Your presence in COP was very significant, as was that of the First Minister and Julie James. I think that we have to be proud of the role that we can play.
For me, one of the most important things was the role of regional and state governments. Particularly where national governments are reluctant to take action, there is so much that we can do at a regional or state level; hearing from people like Sergio Graf Montero, the Minister for the environment for the second largest area of Mexico—a very, very significant industrial area—as well as the Minister for the Maharashtra, which is not just the second largest state in India and its most industrialised, but represents 125 million people. That's twice the size of the UK. So, we really do need to be talking to these really big players, who can really make a massive contribution.
But, we need to be, as you say, showing the way and showing that we are taking seriously the damage that we have done by exploiting the world's resources without any regard to the consequences. I suppose that I want to come back to the question that I asked the First Minister, which is: what can we do stop subsidising fuel—the oil and gas? As you are part of this 'end oil and gas' coalition, how can we justify continuing to subsidise the very activity that we know has the most damaging effects on the developing nations, as well as our own country? So, I wondered if you could just respond to that.

Lee Waters AC: Well, I think that it's a fair challenge. I don't have the figure to hand, but I recall reading that the subsidy that the UK Government has given to fossil fuels through freezing the fuel duty escalator since 2010 is in excess of £30 billion. It may even be higher than that—a very significant direct subsidy to fossil fuels.
One of the challenges that we will have is, as we move away from the internal combustion engine car—. To give credit to the UK Government, they have shown bold international leadership on phasing out petrol and diesel cars by 2030. We signed up to an alliance at COP for making sure that other countries, the major countries, did the same by 2035. But, even by that target, the UK is going to be five years ahead of it, and I think, credit where credit is due: that is something that the UK Government has done that we warmly endorse.
There will be consequences to that in terms of the way that fossil fuels are taxed. Clearly, we currently have petrol tax. When your car doesn't rely on petrol, you won't be able to have the revenues from petrol tax. So, there will need to be a different form of taxation flowing from that. But, of course, unless the electricity generated to fuel those electric cars is sustainably sourced, then you are simply shifting the problem from one place to another.
So, certainly it is our ambition to make sure that we are relying on green fuels and green hydrogen and wind generation for electricity, which will move us away from fossil fuels. So, providing the example of changing our energy mix is one waywe can move away from the subsidies for fossil fuels. But I guess the truth of it is that we've created an economic system that is intrinsically linked with the supply of cheap energy, and cheap oil in particular, that is interwoven into so many of the activities we do and the decisions that we've made. So, untangling ourselves from that is no easy or simple feat, and I don't want to pretend otherwise, but that is something that we all have to work together to do. And I must say, the UK Government are not encouraging in that sense, because they are sending mixed signals. They're talking big at COP, but in the budget, or two weeks before that, did not mention climate change once, introduced subsidies for domestic aviation, and continued the direct fossil fuel subsidy for fuel duty. So, they need to confront their cognitive dissonance, as do we all.

And finally, Carolyn Thomas.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Diolch. During the first week of COP26, I was invited to a conference with presentations by schools across north Wales, and the students had a real understanding that we all have a part to play in tackling climate change. Their suggestions that they came up with included cutting food miles, meat-free Mondays, using renewable energy, reuse and saving water by turning off the tap while brushing their teeth. They were also concerned about climate justice and promoting the use of sustainable palm oil, working with Chester Zoo, and asked for clear labelling on packaging. They recognise that the choices we make here in Wales impact people living in nations across the world. Would the Minister agree with the young people that we all have a part to play and that, together, through individual actions, with the help of Government policy, we can make a big difference?

Lee Waters AC: Yes, and thank you for the question. And I was very pleased, when I was in COP, to take part in panel discussions with the Climate Cymru youth ambassadors, along with the Scottish youth ambassadors and the Minister from the Scottish Government. And what was palpable about it was the outrage of young people of the legacy that their generation is going to be left, and when you look at the statistics and the data that's coming out, the impact of this is profound, but it's also upon us before we know it. You know, within 80 years—and I hope my children will still be alive—unless we dramatically change policies around the world, we face four degrees of global warming, which will wipe out some 70 per cent of the ecosystems required to sustain human life. Now, that is profound and disturbing and justifies outrage, frankly. So, I was pleased by the suggestions you quoted from the young people in your area, and I think we can learn a lot from that. Recycling more, turning off the water tap, labelling palm oil and eating less meat are all simple actions that we can all do that, collectively, will make a difference.
What the Climate Change Committee evidence suggests is that 60 per cent of the actions required to meet net zero are actions individuals can take; 40 per cent of actions that Governments need to take, and those two things need to happen in parallel. We do need people power, but we also need systemic change. And, as I've said all along, to do this, we need to make the right thing to do for the climate the easiest thing to do. And that's something Government's responsible for, and that's something we as a Welsh Government—and again, we have responsibility for something like 40 per cent of the emissions cuts that need to happen; the UK Government has responsibility for 60 per cent. We need to work with them to make sure that systemic change makes it easy for citizens to make the choices we all rely on them to make to stop catastrophic climate change becoming a reality.

I thank the Deputy Minister. We will now suspend proceedings temporarily to allow changeovers in the Siambr. Please remember, if you are leaving the Siambr, do so promptly. The bell will be rung two minutes before proceedings restart, and any Members who are arriving after the changeover should wait until then before entering the Siambr.

Plenary was suspended at 16:14.

The Senedd reconvened at 16:23, with the Deputy Presiding Officer in the Chair.

5. Statement by the Minister for Education and Welsh Language: Children’s Oracy and Reading

Welcome back. The next item is a statement by the Minister for Education and Welsh Language: children's oracy and reading, and I call on the Minister, Jeremy Miles.

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Improving reading skills is essential if we are to make the progress that we all want to see in reducing the attainment gap between pupils from disadvantaged backgrounds and their peers. And a focus on ensuring that everyone has the reading skills that they need to reach their potential is a matter of social justice, and it's also integral if we are to ensure that every learner has the opportunity to access the full breadth of our new curriculum. And it was welcome that, in the last set of Programme for International Student Assessment results, Wales reached its highest score yet in reading and that we have caught up with the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development average. However, there is still a way to go.

Jeremy Miles AC: Speaking, listening and reading skills are fundamental to just about every aspect of our lives, from home to school and to the world of work. Not only are they at the core of being able to access learning, they enable the development of relationships with parents, with peers and wider communities, and can open doors to talking about difficult subjects, which is beneficial to our mental health and well-being. This is why improving reading skills and helping to ignite a passion for reading in our schools is an absolute priority. And today I'm setting out a package of actions to support our children, their families and wider communities to come together to embrace oracy and reading.

Jeremy Miles AC: Firstly, I am pleased to announce an additional £5 million in funding for reading programmes across Wales, which will provide a book for every learner alongside a targeted scheme of reading support, focusing on early years and disadvantaged learners. The programme will ensure that every single child and young person in Wales has a book of their own to keep. It will also include the provision of 72,000 additional books to reception children at schools across Wales, 3,600 letterbox club packs for looked-after children, books and training for practitioners to support learning, and a box of 50 books to every state school in Wales. This additional funding will help children, regardless of background, to develop those early speech, language and communication skills and demonstrate the life-changing impact that books and reading can have. The funding reflects the importance of Wales as a bilingual nation and supports learners to communicate in both languages in everyday life.
We must also support our workforce.Initial teacher education and ongoing professional learning are critical to forming and continuing to improve all practitioners’ practice in this area.Working with teacher education providers and consortiaover the coming months, we’ll instigate a review ofcurrent provisionto ensure practitioners continue to getthehigh quality, easily accessiblesupport that they need across Wales.Building on Estyn reports and research evidence, we'll work with our regional partners to maintain and improve attitudes to and engagement with reading. Estyn will continue to provide examples of effective practice in teaching reading at a whole-school level and developing a culture of reading. And we’ll look to the impact of our interventions so we can improve as a system and support children and young people’s engagement and attainment in reading and oracy.
The curriculum for Wales guidance is clear that the systematic and consistent teaching of phonics must be a key part of the toolkit in our schools, at a stagethat is developmentally appropriate for the learner.We would encourage schools to adopt such an approach alongside vocabulary building and comprehension to ensure learners are able to understand and make sense of what they read and become fluent and effective readers.All teaching must be based on evidence of what we know works, andIthereforeintend to clarify and strengthenourapproachin this area.I recently established a national network, a practitioner-led body, open to allschools, whichwill support the implementation of the new curriculum.I can confirm that our national network will prioritise oracy and reading in the spring. We'll work with experts and practitioners to look at the role of phonics in the new curriculum so that we can provide the best support and guidance for the teaching of reading.
In 2016, the 'National Literacy and Numeracy Programme—a strategic action plan'set outthevision for literacy and numeracy as we moved towards the new curriculum. To build on this, through the national network, we’ll work with practitioners to understand what’s working, reflecting on pedagogy, examples of good practice and communications, as well as what we need to improve. We'll also look at the continued role of the literacy and numeracy framework in supporting the progression of these skills and the need for additional resources and materials.This will help provide the resources, support and expertise needed to facilitate high-quality teaching of oracy and reading. I'm interested in what more we can be doing to share good practice in our early years and foundation phase. With that in mind, it's our intention to work with practitioners and experts over the coming months to develop a toolkit that will help empower teachers to develop their classroom practice that meets the needs of their learners.
We know that, through shared reading experiences, we can encourage a love of books and stories from an early age. This is particularly critical for our youngest children, where the building blocks for early language development begin with developing their attention, listening and understanding skills. The work that is under way on our Talk with Me programme highlights the importance of early language development and the parental role in supporting this. We've recently commissioned a review of language screening tools, undertaken by Cardiff Metropolitan University and the Bristol Speech and Language Therapy Research Unit, and the review will consider how practitioners can be supported in identifying issues in terms of listening, understanding and speaking skills. I expect the report of the review to be shared with me in the coming weeks. But we can and must do more, and we are exploring what more we can do to provide further opportunities to support parents, so that their children can have regular opportunities to engage with rich reading materials and participate in stories, songs and rhymes.
Dirprwy Lywydd, every learner must have the chance to reach their potential, and today I've set out some of the measures we intend to take over coming months to support our learners. As the work escalates, I will endeavour to keep Members updated on the progress that we are making.

Conservative spokesperson, Laura Anne Jones.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Thank you for your statement, Minister. There is no doubt that through this pandemic, it is children and young people that have suffered the most. Schooling is so important, not just for learning and socialisation, but in terms of providing children with structure and routine. The three lockdowns were so harmful to our children's well-being and life chances and it may be some time before we're in a position to accurately assess the damage that this loss of learning time has inflicted.
As you say in your statement, Minister, speaking, reading and listening skills are absolutely fundamental to just about every aspect of our lives, and therefore, it is so vitally important that we get this aspect right through education in Wales. I'm concerned at the impact lockdown has had on children in this regard, but your proposed actions outlined in this statement today seem a bit wishy-washy at best, if I may say so: promising reviews, establishing work groups, with no real action to tackle the problems that we face with ensuring that every child is absolutely supported in every very best way possible through their educational journey to ensure they come out of their educational journey with the very best chances possible, regardless of their background.
I welcome the moneys that will be given to address this; I welcome the moneys for additional books, but will this be one single book, Minister, per learner, above reception age, for the entirety of their educational journey? Or will this be a rolling programme where we see pupils get a book given to them by this Government each year? And how exactly is the £5 million to be spent in terms of targeting the scheme of reading support to go alongside the book? Will this mean more money going directly to our schools from this Government to enable them to choose the books most suitable for their schools and age groups? Will this mean more money going directly to the schools for them to employ new staff to support more reading, or will the current workforce be expected to take on these new roles? Will this money just be for the early learners or disadvantaged learners, or will it be money to provide equity of opportunity for all when it comes to trying to better pupils' reading and oracy skills?
Whereas I warmly welcome any extra support for our teaching staff as you outlined, and I do welcome that, I see in the statement 'over the coming months' and 'next spring will look at', and a lot of words that don't inspire much confidence that you are tackling this problem head on, now. You say you will look at the impact of your interventions, so you can improve the system, but what sort of timescale are we talking about, Minister? Is this really your masterplan for Wales? Because surely, what we need in Wales is more teachers, more teachers per pupil, to get the children the results that they deserve. What urgent action are you taking now, Minister, to ensure that those children who have missed out on reading, learning and oracy skills during lockdowns—? What actually are you putting into place to ensure those children have real opportunities to make up for that lost learning during the last couple of years?
Older children will be more self-sufficient in terms of their own learning, but for younger pupils, time out of school will have resulted in a lot of lost reading time. In terms of children in foundation phase falling behind in their reading and speaking skills, I've heard a lot of anecdotal evidence from parents and teachers, but what work have your ministerial officials undertaken to quantify this fallback? It is really important that when we consider addressing the challenges of lost learning that we know what we're dealing with and the true scale of the problem. Only then will we be able to work out how to close that growing attainment gap. And can you also quantify, Minister, the fallback now compared to the start of the pandemic?
You are right that we need to share best practice; that is always the way forward, in my head, when it comes to tackling reading and oracy skills, but how will schools be working with consortia to share best practice? Because throughout the pandemic, this has not been happening as it did before. We need to get back to a situation where there is independent and robust oversight of school standards through the consortia and Estyn to provide reassurance to parents.
Early oracy and literacy are very important to the development of children, and I feel it has often been overlooked as one of the key foundations of a child's development, especially over the last 18 months. The 'Talk With Me: Speech, Language and Communication (SLC) Delivery Plan' is a useful tool for professionals and parents to support children's development, but not every parent will take on this role. I see first-hand the effects that reading to a child regularly has on my own children, 11 and two. My two-year-old's vocabulary is fantastic for his age because I've invested that time with him, but how, Minister, are we going to support parents who can't, won't or don't know how to support their children in that same way? There was a brilliant initiative from my local primary school where parents were able to come in, if they wanted to, and read with children, read out loud in classrooms during that time, helping to support teachers and other children as well as to learn how to read with a child themselves, to get the best possible results out of the children. This is perhaps something that could be looked into further.
Also, and finally, the Flying Start programme has gone some way to support children with their speech and language development prior to accessing formal education. The Welsh Conservatives have previously called for the Flying Start programme to be accessible to all children, because there is still a postcode lottery in this regard, and it excludes so many people and children that would benefit from this Flying Start support. The current situation we see is exclusionary at the moment and I want to ask you, Minister, whether you would consider extending this programme to reach all children in Wales.

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank Laura Anne Jones for that range of questions. In relation to the points that she asked about the investment in resources, which is one part of the set of actions that I'm describing today, there will be a choice for learners themselves in relation to the books that they will receive. So, they'll have a choice between a range of books and they'll be able to select the one that they wish for themselves. In addition to that book per learner, there will be a set of resources available, a set of books available to each state school in Wales in addition to that.
When I was a young student myself, my love of reading was developed very early on, and I think having access to that rich range of reading materials is an important part of igniting passion for reading, and this will be a contribution to that. But there is also a set of interventions that support the work that the Books Council of Wales do. They will work with us in relation to this, and also the work of BookTrust Cymru, as she will know, in relation to the Bookstart scheme and the Pori Drwy Stori schemes, and so on. So, all of those will be getting additional support as a consequence of the funding that I'm announcing today, which will help learners on their reading journey and support schools and parents in reading with our children and young people. So, there's a set of targeted interventions, if you like, and a more universal offer in the funding that I'm announcing today.
She makes an important point about timing, and when best to take some steps on this path. What I'm announcing today is, if you like, a campaign across Wales over the course of the next months, leading up to the commencement of the roll-out of the new curriculum, and there are important milestones along the way, as she acknowledged in her question. We'll be working with the consortia—we already are—and with Estyn to support our schools and practitioners, both in terms of auditing best practice and sharing some of that, and in providing additional support in terms of professional learning resources, which will be easily found, easily navigable, for our practitioners to make them the most useful they possibly can be. The national network, I think, has an important role to play in this. That is Welsh Government-initiated but practitioner-led, as she will know, and my intention is that that will explore oracy and reading in the spring. It has a programme of work and it's important that we roll that out in a way that practitioners can benefit from and engage with amongst the range of other pressures that they face at the moment. So, the intention is for that to happen in the spring.
She made a series of very important points in relation to the impact that the last 12 to 18 months has had on in particular, perhaps, our youngest learners, and their early developmental stages. She will know that the support that we've provided to date to schools around the Recruit, Recover and Raise Standards funding and the renew and reform plan has been weighted, in particular, towards early years. So, we've committed funding to our non-maintained childcare settings until April of next year, and a significant pot of funding to support foundation phase pedagogy as well. That idea of learning through play, which we know so well, is fundamental to being able to help engage some of our youngest learners with their oracy and with their educational needs. So, that has already been part of the work that we do.
There is evidence in relation to the loss of learning. It's a complex picture. It does show that over the course of the last 12 to 18 months, there has been a loss in terms of capacity for reading, but that has been made up in some periods over the last year. So, it is a complex picture over the last 18 months, but it is absolutely the case that we know that learners at all age ranges need further support. That has been the underpinning principle of the investment that we've made so far to give schools that extra capacity to support learners in the way that she asked in her question.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Siân Gwenllian.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. I’m pleased to hear that the programme announced today will ensure that every child and young person in Wales will have a book to keep. I was reminded recently of the pleasure I got from reading a book calledLunedBengoch as a child—a book that has just been re-issued and is now available once again in the shops. I had huge pleasure in re-reading that book just last week, before a meeting of a local book club that I’m a member of. It’s clear that the reading habits you pick up when you’re very young do remain with you. Establishing strong early language skills is a crucial part of literacy and a child’s ability to realise his or her educational potential and life chances, whilst also crucial to the ability to create social relationships with family, friends and peers.
There is research by the Royal College of Speech and Language Therapists that shows that the COVID period has exacerbated the delay in acquiring speech and language skills among young children, but I’m pleased to hear you mention that there are signs of that improving. There is also research undertaken way before the pandemic. There is evidence available that children from disadvantaged backgrounds are more likely to be behind their peers in terms of the acquisition of speech and language skills by the time they start in primary school. Research from Save the Children shows that around eight in 10 reception teachers in Wales see clearly that children coming to their schools have difficulty in speaking in full sentences, and that children who have difficulties with speech and language during their early years are often still behind their peers in terms of key literacy skills at the age of 11.
So, there are numerous challenges facing Welsh Government, and I’m very pleased that you have recognised that, and that the plans that you’ve announced today go at least some of the way to addressing some of these major problems that we have. Bearing in mind just how crucial early years education is in developing reading and oracy skills, I’d like to hear more about the toolkit that you mentioned, which is going to be put in place for the early years. What exactly will this entail, how will it look and what will be new about it? Can you also outline what steps will be taken to respond to that attainment gap that I mentioned, bearing in mind that children from a disadvantaged background are more likely to fall behind their peers in their development of oracy and reading skills? You mentioned phonics. Why did you emphasise that particular method? Is that going to help specifically with closing that attainment gap?Are there specific advantages in terms of that aspect that need to be addressed?
And finally, in order to deliver the objectives of 'Cymraeg 2050' and improve the oracy and reading skills of children through the medium of Welsh, it’s clear that we need to train enough teachers to be able to teach through the medium of Welsh. I’m not going to apologise for asking once again about your plans to increase and strengthen the Welsh-medium education workforce specifically. I note that in your statement today you have emphasised the importance of bilingualism and creating materials in both languages, which is to be welcomed, of course, but we do need to see a plan in place that will move us forward in increasing the workforce too that can assist children in improving their oracy and reading skills. Thank you.

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you to Siân Gwenllian for those further questions. I share with her the memory of reading a book that I had when I was at school, and I remember developing a delight for learning in the classroom of Miss Annie Derrick in Pontarddulais school when I was a young boy. So, these things stay long in the mind. But, of course, as the Member says, this isn’t an experience that everyone shares, because it’s something that should be encouraged at home, and not everyone has the same access to the same resources and support. This is a contribution in that direction. The plan tries to get to grips with some of the issues that you talked about—the attainment gap and the emphasis on supporting those who need the most support in order to make progress.
In terms of the specific questions, in terms of the toolkit, this is one of the range of elements of support in terms of professional development that we have been working on with Estyn and the internal team within the Welsh Government. We’ve been working with the consortia too to ensure that the good practice that is already available is being shared in a more widespread way in terms of the resources available to our teachers. So, the toolkit is an element of that and will support teachers to develop their teaching skills in this specific area.
In terms of emphasising and encouraging people to read more at home, in the past 18 months of course the relationship between the schools and parents and carers has changed, and in several ways, it has strengthened as schools have responded to the COVID challenges. There will be a significant public campaign taking place at the end of this year to encourage parents, carers and guardians to speak to their children, to read to their children. We’ll outline the benefits of that and we’ll try to ensure that the messages that are part of that national publicity campaign will outline the advantages of doing just that and will encourage parents of all backgrounds to spend that time with their children.
The Member asked an important question in terms of phonics. Phonics is one element of a suite of options available to teachers. It is an important part of that other toolkit in terms of the steps that we can take, but we must also ensure that learning vocabulary and comprehension happen at the same time. But I want to ensure that we look at the evidence in this regard, that we set out that context too, for our teachers, so that they have that context in order to make the choices that they need to make. That’s why I mentioned in the statement that we intend to look at the evidence from that way of teaching oracy and we will ensure that we implement the best practice in our new curriculum.
Other parts of the United Kingdom, England specifically, hold an annual test for phonics for students; I don’t think that’s the right way ahead. We are trying to move in our curriculum away from that kind of test that demonstrates a snapshot, if you will. We, of course, have personalised assessments, online assessments, for reading already. Those are available already in ways that are flexible for teachers to be able to hold those assessments during the year, and that demonstrates to the pupil, to the teachers, to the parents and to the guardians the development of the learners in terms of reading and comprehension. That is part of the ethos of the new curriculum to provide an opportunity—that assessments are part of the learning process. So, that's a different aspect of the way that we look at things here in Wales.
The final question that the Member asked was with regard to growing the education workforce. And this, of course, is a priority for us, as we have discussed jointly here in the Siambr already, in terms of teachers, of course, but also in terms of classroom assistants, to ensure that we have a workforce that speaks Welsh in all parts of the workforce. That's important, too. We are working on a draft plan at the moment; we are preparing that to share with stakeholders. We have had discussions with various stakeholders already, including the Education Workforce Council and others, but we need to have further discussions with other stakeholders, which includes the commissioner and a range of other stakeholders. This is something that we have to make urgent progress on, but we can only do that through collaboration with the other partners that we have in the education system.

Gareth Davies AS: Thank you very much, Minister, for your statement this afternoon. Whilst I welcome actions taken to improve oracy rates across the board, I do have concerns about those in the care system as well as those providing care. Minister, we know that educational attainment amongst young people in care is well below that of their peers. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of oracy rates for those in the care system? Has the pandemic had any impact on oracy rates amongst young people in care? Finally, Minister, I had the pleasure of meeting Wrexham, Conwy and Denbighshire Young Carers last week. They offer fantastic support to young carers in the Vale of Clwyd, but young carers also need that support in the classroom. So, Minister, how will you ensure that young carers do not fall behind their peers when it comes to reading and oracy? Thank you very much.

Jeremy Miles AC: I think the Member makes a very important point. A number of the interventions that I've described today, in particular the book scheme, will have a dimension that makes sure that books are received by young people in care specifically. There are some particular interventions for some of our most vulnerable disadvantaged families around the early years, and some of the books that I've been referring to are rhyming books for children who need additional support and additional support to be able to learn at home. Another part of the book programme is the letterbox club—books that benefit in particular looked-after children. So, that is absolutely a lens through which we've seen the proposals that I'm making today. He will know that there's already a piece of work that I'm working on, together with the Deputy Minister with responsibility for care, in relation to what more we can do to support looked-after children in their educational attainment generally. But I do share his concern that the experience of the last 18 months will have had a detrimental effect in terms of oracy, in particular, perhaps, for those in the early years, for whom we know there is a particular set of challenges.

Thank you, Minister.

7. Statement by the Minister for Education and Welsh Language: The Welsh Language Communities Housing Plan

Items 6 and 7 have been postponed.

8. Statement by the Minister for Economy: The Young Person’s Guarantee

So, we'll move now to item 8, a statement by the Minister for Economy on the young person’s guarantee. I call on the Minister, Vaughan Gething.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Our young people hold the key to Wales's future. That is why I'm delighted to have officially launched our young person's guarantee this week. The Welsh Government is determined that there will be no lost generation in Wales as a result of the pandemic. We are putting in place an ambitious programme designed to provide everyone under 25 in Wales with the offer of work, education, training, or self-employment.This, I believe, is the bold action that we must take to help young people to get the best possible start. We want to give young people the support that they need for a brighter future when leaving school, college, university, if they are unemployed or if they face redundancy.Working Wales is now the single gateway for every 16 to 24-year-old in Wales to access the guarantee. This will build on the already strong and successful model of delivering careers guidance and signposting support to all programmes and services available locally. More than 5,500 young people who are eligible for the guarantee have already accessed our Working Wales services since 2021.

Vaughan Gething AC: Whatever the uncertainties we face, we can be sure of one thing: failing to step up to support young people today guarantees economic failure tomorrow. The guarantee is supported by wide-ranging provision to ensure that young people can take up effective support that works for them. In this year alone, the Welsh Government has invested £390 million in sixth forms and further education, providing thousands of young people with a range of academic and vocational courses; £16.4 million in educational maintenance allowances; £5 million for extra places; and an additional £33 million to support young people in education to recover from the impact of the pandemic.
We have provided £152 million for apprenticeships. This includes £18.7 million for employer incentives encouraging the recruitment of young people. While apprenticeships are an all-age programme, around 39 per cent of apprentices starting in 2019-20 were under the age of 25. We have provided over £1.2 billion in higher education student support for 2021-22. In the previous year, around 60 per cent of Welsh higher education students were aged 16 to 24, meaning that our innovative package of maintenance grants and loans enable students, regardless of age, household or family income, to access higher education. In the past year, we have also provided £122 million of additional funding to build capacity and enable our universities to increase their hardship funding and support services to students affected by the pandemic. We provide £70 million per year to help people into work through a range of employability programmes, including ReAct, traineeships and community employabilty programmes.
In June of this year, I announced our intention to develop the guarantee, and this week, I launched phase 1, which focuses on enhancing employability and skills provision. The comprehensive package brings together programmes designed to provide the right support at the right time, for the diverse needs of young people across Wales. This includes new user-friendly services to help young people more easily find opportunities. The young person's guarantee offer provides young people aged 16 to 24 in Wales with access to one simple route to the guarantee through Working Wales, with support and advice from advisers provided on multiple forums, including virtually, on the high street, and improved outreach facilities across Wales; a new user-friendly course search platform for those wanting to enter further or higher education; training and wage incentives through the ReAct programme; a place on one of our outreach community employability programmes; or self-employment advice and support through Big Ideas Wales, which is part of Business Wales; traineeships that provide work experience and training; help to find an apprenticeship; and a referral to one of the programmes funded by other partners, including the Department for Work and Pensions or local authorities.
Working Wales is also trialling a new job-matching service to assist young people with securing employment and to help employers fill vacancies. Our next steps in the development of the guarantee will include an enhanced programme for young people, aiding their transition into self-employment, with a package of business and financial support and advice. We will increase our focus on fair work and jobs. People aged 16 to 24 accounted for 16 per cent of all UK redundancies during 2020, so we have been developing new approaches to support the guarantee. There will be specific pathways to support recruitment into growth sectors, preparing people for jobs of the future, with two new flexible employability programmes—ReAct plus and Jobs Growth Wales+. We are expanding our jobs bulletin approach that has, this summer, advertised 20,000 jobs to young people, and we will be reaching out to employers through our 'We're in your corner' campaign, inviting employers to connect with Business Wales and to play their part in making the guarantee a success. We are prioritising young people and net-zero skills within the apprenticeship programmes.
With one in seven people in Wales self-employed, we need to ensure that the next generation fully understand this career path option. So, we will continue to inspire and support young entrepreneurs across Wales, and stimulate their ambitions to start their own businesses through Big Ideas Wales. We'll continue with our collaborative approach. So, regional skills partnerships will commence engagement events to shape guarantee provision within their area. Work is already under way nationally with the Department for Work and Pensions to try and ensure that programmes like Kickstart and Restart are ones that complement rather than compete or duplicate with provision that we provide. We do continue to call on the UK Government to work with us to shape a co-ordinated response in Wales and, in our view, to mitigate the impact of proposed cuts to welfare benefits and inequalities that will be created through the UK Government’s current approach to community renewal funds.
We will continue to listen to our young people through a series of focus groups between now and December, to understand how they view the support and offer available; what they want to see; and the barriers that they face. Tomorrow, I'll be launching the SkillsCymru event, and using it as a further opportunity for us to listen and engage with an audience of around 5,000 young people from across Wales on the jobs and skills agenda. This will, of course, feed through to the next phase of development for the guarantee in Wales.
As I have said before at the start of this statement, young people hold the key to Wales’s future success, and I am proud to lead the work on the young person’s guarantee. I will, of course, continue to keep Members informed on progress.

Conservative spokesperson, Paul Davies.

Paul Davies AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you for your statement, Minister. I’m pleased to hear that there has been some progress in rolling out the young person’s guarantee, and that more and more young people across Wales are now able to access opportunities, whether that is in work, training or even setting up their own business.
When the Welsh Government was setting up the young person’s guarantee before the summer, there was a real desire to see young people’s voices at the heart of the scheme. Minister, you said that, over the summer, you were looking to set up a national conversation with young people about the young person’s guarantee, and whilst today’s statement gives us some information about the engagement activity that took place over the summer, perhaps you could tell us more about it. For example, can you tell us how that conversation with young people took place? How many people did you engage with? And, crucially, how did you ensure that voices in all parts of Wales were being heard?
Now, Minister, you’ve made it clear, recently, that Working Wales has been doing some tracking work since the end of September, and it’s important that we see exactly where things are going well and, perhaps, where improvements need to be made. Therefore, Minister, could you confirm exactly what Working Wales is tracking? Does it cover outcomes in all fields, whether it’s work, training or self employment? And if so, what sort of assessment have you been able to make from the data you have so far?
Today’s statement also updates us on the job-matching pilot that Working Wales has been undertaking. I know from previous exchanges that the Welsh Government has been keen to learn from the pilot, with a view to rolling out the pilot nationally. Of course, Working Wales is best placed to engage with partners and stakeholders across the country on this, and so, Minister, could I tease out some more detail from you on whether that roll-out is still happening, and what sort of timescales you’ve earmarked to complete this particular work?
Now, it’s vital that the young person’s guarantee works in tandem with the Welsh Government’s other schemes, such as the Jobs Growth Wales scheme and the ReAct scheme, for example. Indeed, the Welsh Government must also recognise the very important work being done by Careers Wales, which also helps young people plan out their career, prepare for a job, or apply for an apprenticeship or training. For example, earlier this month, Careers Wales launched a partnership with the nationwide social mobility charity, Speakers for Schools, to help deliver work experience opportunities and career talks available to students in Wales between the ages of 11 and 19, in a bid to help disadvantaged young people catch up post COVID. Therefore, it’s really important that the young person’s guarantee works in tandem with these other programmes and reaches the young people who, perhaps, haven’t been able to access support or aren’t aware of the help that the other programmes offer. So, Minister, can you tell us then how you intend for the young person’s guarantee to work alongside other projects and strategies to support young people here in Wales?
Minister, it’s absolutely crucial that there is sufficient funding in place to ensure the young person’s guarantee has the resources it needs to make the maximum impact, and I’m pleased that the statement tells us a little bit more about the budgetary allocations that are being made. It’s good to see funding being made available for sixth forms, FE providers, apprenticeships and the HE sector, but it's also important funding is there to develop self-employment opportunities as well. So, Minister, the statement rightly notes that, with one in seven people in Wales self employed, we need to ensure the next generation fully understand this career path option. Therefore, can you tell us how much funding is being allocated to support entrepreneurship?
The statement also confirms that the Welsh Government is reaching out to employers through the 'We're in your corner' campaign, which invites employers to connect with Business Wales and play their part in the guarantee, and I think it's really important that there's a genuine buy-in from businesses across Wales. So, Minister, can you tell us more about how the campaign is working, how you're ensuring that businesses in all parts of the country are aware of the campaign, and how Business Wales is actively recruiting businesses across Wales?
Now, Minister, the Welsh Government's 'Feed Your Positivity' campaign, which was launched last month, aims to encourage young Welsh people to positively engage with their plans for the future, and it's good to see the Welsh Government working with social influences and brand partners on platforms that are popular with young people, to share positive messages about the available support on offer. And so, Minister, could you provide an update on how the 'Feed Your Positivity' campaign is progressing and the impact that you believe it's having on young people in Wales today?
Dirprwy Lywydd, I'm pleased to see that regional skills partnerships will now start a series of engagement events to shape guarantee provision within their area, and that focus groups are being set up between now and December to understand how young people view the support and offer available. We all want the young person's guarantee to be a success in Wales, and it's vital that the voices of young people across Wales are heard loud and clear. So, can I thank the Minister for his statement and look forward to further updates on the guarantee over the coming months? Thank you.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the series of questions that I'll try and address in time. About your point about the national conversation with young people, we've of course been having a conversation with young people, as part of the regular interaction that we have, about how the guarantee could and should work. We haven't done as much as I would have wanted in a more structured national conversation. We haven't been able to do that with the staff and the resources we have available. What we've done is, we've concentrated on getting this stage of it right, and the refocusing of Jobs Growth Wales+ in particular, which I'm genuinely excited about, as it brings together the successful Jobs Growth Wales programme that we know has helped young people to get into and to stay in employment. We know that similar schemes were withdrawn in other parts of the UK, but also with traineeships as well, and that's about helping to address the needs of people who don't perhaps have all of the qualifications they might want, or, indeed, need to be job ready. So, we're combining those two things; that comes from listening to young people about what they said they particularly want. And it's also from listening to young people who are not in education, employment or training, where they want to be in a job, and that's their preferred option to move forward. So, we've had to think about how we provide the right support for them. And that does come from the more than 5,500 people we've interacted with since May this year.
So, the further focus work we'll be undertaking will build upon that over the next two months, and I expect—and this is an open offer; it builds on, if you like, our previous conversation with other Members in the scrutiny committee last week about how we make available, on a regular basis, data that can give you some numbers of what we're doing and who's coming through. But what I want to be able to do, on at least an annual basis, is to provide a greater summary with more information around it, and not just figures, but about the feedback we're getting too. And not because a committee will demand it of us, but I think we're much better off being able to set out, on a regular basis, how and when we'll provide that information, and I fully expect that both from the Chamber and, indeed, the committee that you chair, that I and my officials can expect to be asked questions about that and whether we're making the progress that we want to.
On Working Wales to date, as I've indicated, they've dealt with 20,000 job adverts, they've had more than 12,000 interactions with individual young people since May this year. And when we'll be able to assess their success in rolling out and having oversight of the interactions of the guarantee—I think we'll get that from the regular information that I've indicated I want to be able to make available to Members and, indeed, the wider public.
I note your question and your comments about interactions with other parts of the Government as well, and so, I have had regular conversations with other Ministers in the lead-up to the guarantee, and in particular, a conversation between my officials, but also directly between myself and Jeremy Miles as the education Minister. Because we're in the fortunate position that about 360,000 young people are still in education. We have about 48,000 young people who are not in education, employment or training. So, we have a good base—the great majority of young people are in a form of education, but our challenge is how we do more to make sure that those people then have a successful start in their working life, during or post education, and, indeed, for those people who aren't currentlyin employment, education or training. And those 48,000 people is just far too many—it's 48,000 people too many in terms of their ability to get into the world of work, and it means for them, their families but also for the country.
So, we do expect that we will be able to work alongside other interventions. It isn't just about the good will and the good relationship between Ministers and officials within the Government, it is, as I've described, about making sure that we can signpost people to other interventions—the interventions run by local authorities, and, crucially, interventions that are run by the UK Government too. Because, if we're going to be able to do this as successfully as all of us in this Chamber would want too, regardless of our party, then we do need to understand clearly what the UK Government is funding and supporting in this area, so we don't duplicate or compete for the same people. That's why the employability review that I've mentioned before is so very important; it should mean there is time for us to understand where we are, time for us to understand what the UK Government is doing and how we plan interventions alongside each other. And this isn't a partisan and a party-political point because, actually, in the most recent past, we've actually been able to have interventions in Wales that have been organised in a way where they don't deliberately duplicate and don't compete with the Department for Work and Pensions. My ambition is for that to happen again in this next round. Some of what the DWP are doing has shifted a little, so we need to take account of that in the way that we run our own services.
On self-employment options, I'm going to make a further announcement about this in the coming weeks, so I won't spike that particular answer, but one of the things we are looking at is a previous scheme where we provided grants for young people to start up self-employed businesses. There was a grant, and I'm looking at whether we can provide the same sort of level of start-up grant, together with the advice and support that we would want to provide to any entrepreneur at any stage in their career to start up. And again, the useful thing is that we built up larger brands that people genuinely recognised. Business Wales houses many of these, but it's Big Ideas Wales, as part of Business Wales, which should be the right place. And actually, part of the value in what we're doing is that the main entrance point is Working Wales, and they can direct people to where they want to be. From a business point of view, they can go to any part of Business Wales, but it's Business Wales and the Skills Gateway for Business that are the main parts they'd look at. And also, for those people who have got self-employed options, they can go direct to Big Ideas Wales, or they can find an entrance point with advice and guidance to support them, and to understand their specific needs through the gateway that Working Wales will be operating for us. Most employers do understand that it's a skills gateway for them to access, to understand how they can support the guarantee. We already have a number of businesses that have inquired directly, but the 'We're in your corner' campaign that we'll be launching formally and starting off before the end of January in the new year will be another opportunity to remind businesses about how we want them to gather together with a call for action to support the guarantee as well.
I do think, though, that the questions about assessing the impact of the 'Feed Your Positivity' campaign, it's a little too early to assess the impact of that, but I'm clear that, in each of the interventions and the campaigns we've run, we'll need to be able to understand, within the Government, with Working Wales and other partners, how successful they have been, and then to understand if we need to do more of what we've already done, or if we need to try and further tailor our offer. And again, I hope that that will be part of the information that you'll be able to see. I know that today won't be the end of the questions, but I look forward to engaging with you in the Chamber, and, indeed, as I've said, in the committee.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Luke Fletcher.

Luke Fletcher AS: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and thank you, Minister, for your statement today.

Luke Fletcher AS: As I've said before, the young person's guarantee is a welcome scheme. Plaid Cymru proposed a very similar offer during the election, so we have been keen to know further details to ensure it upholds young people's rights and promotes sustainable growth in the Welsh economy. It's good to hear as well that young people will be able to feed into this directly. I can't say it any more, I can't say, 'Do it with us', because, as of recently, I'm no long considered 25 and under. Sorry, Dirprwy Lywydd, I couldn't help but drop that one in there. But it's good that the Welsh Government is keeping to the principle that it's about doing it with young people and not to young people.
While the statement today appears to cover a variety of funding and investment into the guarantee, I am interested to have some further information from the Minister on the details of delivery. Firstly, the pandemic has disproportionately affected young workers in Wales. In 2020, under-25s made up a third of new universal credit claimants in the UK, and 47 per cent of jobs filled by under-25s were furloughed between March and June 2020, compared to an average of 32 per cent overall jobs. These figures confirm that younger people across the UK are in more precarious work than the general population. The Welsh Government should strive to change this through the young person's guarantee. How exactly do the Welsh Government plan to ensure employment offers within the guarantee have fair pay that matches levels seen before the pandemic and accounts for the rise in inflation? And while the statement, of course, suggests that the Government is increasing its focus on fair work and jobs, how will they work with businesses, trade unions and other bodies across Wales to ensure that the young person's guarantee is truly delivering high-quality fair work and awareness of employment rights amongst young people?
The young person's guarantee should provide economic opportunities for young people across Wales, while also serving local communities and small businesses. In 2019, small and medium enterprises accounted for 99.4 per cent of total businesses in Wales. If the Welsh Government delivered the young person's guarantee through the 'think small first' model, where local small businesses provide the jobs, apprenticeships and training opportunities to young people, then the wealth and wider societal and economic benefits generated by higher youth employment and improvements in human capital and knowledge can remain in Wales to the advantage of local communities, rather than being extracted elsewhere. SMEs and local businesses play a vital part in fostering a Welsh economy that works for all, which is why the Welsh Government should prioritise these types of businesses when matching young people to opportunities through the scheme. Would the Welsh Government consider implementing a 'think small first' model within the young person's guarantee and prioritise reaching out to SMEs?
I was also wondering if the Minister could provide some clarity as to how training and jobs-matching services in the scheme will work to target skills gaps and labour shortages and how this will tie in with promoting a greener economy and reaching net-zero targets. The Federation of Small Businesses have noted that a chronic skills shortage over recent months has impeded Wales's economic recovery. Labour shortages and skill gaps are prevalent through the Welsh economy, but are particularly prominent in sectors such as construction and hospitality. The FSB reported that 50 per cent of construction businesses have been struggling to recruit staff in trades like carpentry and bricklaying, while the Construction Industry Training Board's labour market intelligence report estimated that an extra 9,250 workers would be needed in Wales between 2020 and 2025 without taking in net-zero considerations. Meanwhile, since 2016, we have seen the available construction workforce declining. How will the pathways and programmes within the guarantee, such as ReAct+ and Jobs Growth Wales+, target advice and training towards sectors experiencing these shortages while balancing out a variety of opportunities for all, and how will net-zero skills training and apprenticeships be prioritised within the guarantee to ensure opportunities provided are in line with the future generations Act?
And finally, and, unfortunately, as I highlighted with the Minister last week, between 2020 and 2021, the gender pay gap has actually worsened in Wales. According to figures from this period by Chwarae Teg, the Welsh gender pay gap increased by 0.7 per cent to a total gap of 12.3 per cent. This has resulted in there now being not a single local authority area in Wales where women earn more than men. To reiterate, women now earn less than men everywhere in Wales. Over the same period, men's hourly pay increased by 49p, while women's pay only increased by 34p. These figures go to show that progress towards economic gender equality is not guaranteed and Government intervention is needed to ensure women get a fair stake in the Welsh economy. With this in mind, how will the Welsh Government be working with businesses involved in the young person's guarantee to ensure young women are being offered opportunities with equal pay, and how will training and education in the guarantee support women to enter high-paying sectors where they are currently under-represented?

Vaughan Gething AC: I thank the Member for his questions, and I want to reassure him that he'll be young in this place, comparatively, for some time to come. On your starting point and your endpoint about fair work, essentially, and what our expectations around fair work are, you'll see things that aren't just part of the guarantee. You'll see the legislation we're going to be introducing on social partnership and procurement, and we'll be talking more about fair work within that piece of legislation, so there'll be an opportunity to scrutinise what that means, but a more general gathering together of what each of us expects from the trade union side and from the business side as well. In the business groups that I have talked with—. I had a meeting with a range of business groups this morning and I had a meeting with a range of trade union groups at lunchtime as well. So, there's direct and regular engagement, and we are finding that there isn't pushback from those business groups about wanting to have an agenda around fair work; they want understanding of what that means, and what it means for them and the businesses that they run. It shouldn't be a surprise that business groups are not trying to make a case to us that they should be able to pay people as little as possible and not worry about whether their workplaces are fair or not. We have more levers, of course, with those businesses that receive Welsh Government support and more levers with those people where they undertake procurement from the public purse as well. So, there are examples we can set about the way we conduct our own business, as well as where we have more direct influence. And the points about gender inequalities in the workforce are ones that I understand very well, not just having run equal pay cases for some time before coming to this place, but, actually, when you see the labour force information, it's very clear. And it's not much of a surprise that, actually, the pandemic has actually made things worse in terms of expectations and how people have divided responsibilities within families in a way that often—not in my family, but often—meant that women have had an even more disproportionate share of caring responsibilities as well. And that has an impact on the broader consequences around work and progression in particular.
So, there's a challenge that is societal versus the Government taking a lead, and you'll hear more not just from me, but you'll hear in particular from not just the Minister for Social Justice, who is in the room, and I have noted that, but from Ministers across the Government. It's why the work that I was talking about last week on how we do what you suggested, in terms of how we provide skills and opportunities in careers that have traditionally been seen as for one gender or another but to make it clear that they are for people, and people with skills, and to perhaps encourage people to consider those as careers in ways that haven't always been the case in the past.
So, the investment in skills is a key way in which we know that we can increase both the efficiency and productivity of businesses and individual workers, and that should lead to higher wages—and we've seen a fairly consistent course over some period of time. And you'd expect the guarantee to contribute to that. That is both about those people who are already in work and people who have skills at the outset, but, crucially, for people who are further away from the labour market as well. So, one of our big challenges is that, given that DWP interventions are mostly around people who are close to the labour market, at or near job ready, we are almost certainly going to need to focus more of our interventions on people who need more assistance to get to the labour market and to be job ready. But that will make a difference, because actually one of our key challenges and differences with the rest of the UK is we still have a higher than average group of people who aren't economically active. So, actually, those interventions will make a real difference for what the overall shape of the economy will be.
Now, small businesses—. I was interested in what you said about a 'think small first' approach, and my starting point would be that we want every good employer to engage with the guarantee and to take part in it. But I'd be interested in perhaps a more focused and practical conversation with you around what a 'think small first' approach might look like and whether that's actually about the Government preferring smaller employers or whether it's about us encouraging smaller employers to become directly engaged. Because if we were to say we were going to provide disproportionate benefits or incentives, I can see that being challenging, but if it's about how we get to work alongside small businesses to reconsider their opportunities to provide people with opportunities in their workplace, to take on board young people, to think about investing in their skills, then I think that is a genuinely fruitful conversation that I would be interested in having with the Member, because our overall ambition is to keep talent and value in Wales, and small businesses, of course, have to be part of that.
And just to finish on your point about green skills and investment choices, I do expect the guarantee to be part of this. I've already indicated that, with the investment choices we make within the Government, we'll be looking to promote businesses to think again about the skills of their workforce, about how those skills equip them to take advantage of the opportunities of greening our economy—the necessity of it, as well as the opportunity to see a space to operate within. So, it's partly about why we're looking at green trade union reps, because often the best ideas in a workplace about how to decarbonise come from people who undertake that work on a regular basis. And when I've visited businesses, all the best ideas don't just come from the people who sit in a management office; they recognise that people on the shop floor, in whatever business it is, often have the best and most practical ideas about how to save money and how to reduce the footprint of that business on the wider world and community. And it will also make an impact in the way that we support businesses with the way in which I expect to provide future business support. And I expect to have a package to be able to move forward with, and you will see within that clear incentives to invest in future skills, and in particular in how businesses decarbonise. And I certainly expect that future apprentices will be part of helping to deliver that new way of working, as well as of course investing in people who are already in the world of work as we speak.

Jane Dodds AS: Thank you for your statement, Minister. As we all know, the last two years have been incredibly difficult for young people, as opportunities have been scaled back or even lost altogether. Added to that, our economy has been on rocky ground for much of the last decade, with younger people often bearing the brunt, so I do welcome this initiative as an opportunity to bring the needs of young people together with the needs of small businesses. I wanted to echo the contribution from the FSB Cymru that the young person's guarantee must 'think small first', and must work hand in hand with small businesses to maximise the potential of this scheme to the benefit of young people, small businesses and our economy. Not only do small businesses make up the greatest proportion of businesses in Wales—especially so in rural areas—but they are tapped into the local communities, providing range of essential services, and have a great diversity of skill.
You may remember, Minister, that I wrote to you on behalf of a baker in my region just a few weeks ago, asking for help with growing their small family business. They said that they found it difficult to navigate the options available to them and were keen to bring on board an apprentice. So, I do hope that the principle of simplicity for these young people engaging with the guarantee will also apply to small businesses seeking to play their part in supporting young people and our economy.
I would also welcome clarity on how a meaningful offer will be measured or characterised for young people and for businesses, and, if I could, Minister, ask what a meaningful offer looks like across Wales, because a meaningful offer will look very different in Newport or Cardiff than it does in Brecon or Machynlleth, not least given the make-up of businesses, transport and access to further and higher education institutions.
And finally, there are schemes across Europe that marry opportunities for young people with economic development in communities reliant on tourism. This helps to transition those local economies to a more sustainable footing and supports young people in the locality. I wonder if you could outline how this guarantee could help communities to achieve that outcome. Thank you—diolch yn fawr iawn.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you, and I recognise that the last decade has been more challenging than we'd want, both coming out of the global financial crash, and then measures that the UK chose to take at the time. And, to be fair, I know that the Member wasn't an enthusiastic supporter of the austerity that was introduced and the challenges, the very real challenges, that that provided, but, even during that time, within Wales, we have closed a number of gaps with the UK on employment and on productivity as well. It's because we've been able to invest in skills here, and it's why the issue of former European funds is such a key point for us, because we've used a lot of that budget to invest in the skills of the current and the future workforce. And not being able to co-ordinate that on a national basis will make a real difference about what we're able to do alongside businesses and, indeed, for the workforce.
I don't think that goes into your point about the bakery that you didn't name, but I take on board your point about how we make it simple for people: simple for the people running a business, simple for the people who want options to join that business, and again how we help them. And it is entirely possible for small businesses to take on apprentices. A number already do, and do so successfully. And so I'd want to see more of that to make it easier, but to make sure the opportunities are real, whether in small, medium or large businesses. And I think that goes into the point made by Luke Fletcher as well about the FSB's call. And why on earth wouldn't the Federation of Small Businesses call for small businesses to be more involved? The challenge I have is making sure that there's a fair offer, one that engages businesses of all types who can and are keen to play their part in making the guarantee a success.
And I think, dealing broadly with your point about what is a meaningful offer for communities, what is a meaningful offer in different parts of Wales—and you mentioned some of the challenges in rural Wales that may be different to urban sectors in Wales, and yet we know that there are significant barriers to people in different parts of the city of Cardiff, Swansea or Newport in gaining opportunities, and so we are looking at not just those and not just about challenges in the language, but how we understand the individual barriers to engagement for individual young people. And that's why the support and the advice stage is so very important, to understand, for that person in the part of Wales in which they live, what are the barriers that face them for them to be able to get into work. Is its childcare? Is it the ability to physically get to a place where education, training or work is available? Is it that, actually, we need to do more to understand what we need to do to improve their skills base before they can practically enter the world of work?
So, the support phase is really important to be able to do that, and that may well look different if you live in Machynllethcompared to if you live in Johnstown, compared to if you live in Barry. All of those places will have a slightly different context to them; that's why I'm so very keen that we do get the advice and the guidance phase right. If we do that properly then I'm confident we'll have businesses that want to engage, we'll have education and training providers who are ready and want to engage, and to do more in this space, and I think we'll do the right thing by people right across the country.

Joyce Watson AC: Thank you, Minister, for your statement. Young people across Wales, it's been said many times today, indeed across the UK, have been one of the hardest hit groups as a result of the COVID-19 pandemic, and three fifths of jobs that were lost as a result of the pandemic were lost to those under 25. Therefore, obviously, like everybody else here today, I welcome the launch of the young person's guarantee, and of course the Welsh Government's commitment to ensuring that every young person between the ages of 16 and 25 will be offered a place in employment.
But the Welsh Government has a proven track record when it comes to helping young people into the world of work, having helped already over 19,000 young people through the Jobs Growth Wales programme in the last 10 years. An important aspect of the guarantee is helping to secure apprenticeships and traineeships for those individuals who would prefer to go down that route. I think the new programme is a great opportunity to build upon that, which has the potential to provide a real opportunity to expand training opportunities for young people in my region.
But I want to ask about the imbalance that already exists in the jobs in the construction industry. Already we know that they are mostly dominated by males, that women are under-represented, and other people also. So, my question to you is this: when we look at including people in the jobs guarantee, could we also look at delivering a wider opportunity through the modern apprenticeships, particularly in that construction industry, and support those who are providing the training and also the opportunity in moving it forward to make it more equal, and to make their workforce and traineeships more diverse?

Vaughan Gething AC: I thank Joyce Watson for again highlighting the point that the youngest people have been one of the hardest hit groups from the pandemic, and the loss of work opportunities in the work that they were already in and the direct impact. Equally, I too am very proud of what previous Welsh Labour Governments have done with Jobs Growth Wales, and the more than 19,000 job opportunities that we've helped to create and sustain that have made a real difference. You see that the youth unemployment rate in Wales compares favourably with other parts of the UK, and crucially other European countries that didn't have such a deliberate intervention to try to protect young people from the fallout from, initially, the financial crisis and the ongoing damage done through austerity.
I should also recognise that, of course, Joyce Watson has been a consistent advocate for Women Into Construction, and has held a number of events within the Senedd on this very subject. I welcome her continued championing of the issue because she's right to point out that, unless you're going to do something about how the industry is seen, then you won't get more women to go into the industry. And that is both about women who want to go into the industry themselves, but also crucially the people making the hiring choices as well, to recognise there are many women who could and should have a career within the sector, because I think there are still some assumptions about the sort of person you need to be to be successful within construction. I've had meetings with construction industry representatives, myself and the Deputy Minister for Climate Change are jointly chairing a forum with the construction industry, and I will want to make sure that we're proactive about our expectations and our offer. I'm sure that I'll get an invitation from Joyce Watson to attend a future event to talk about this in more detail, and I'd be very happy to do so, because we do need to address the diversity, not just from the point of view about how not just Labour Members, but others too feel about equality and opportunity, but there is a real waste of talent that isn't being properly taken advantage of and is lost to that industry if it doesn't look more clearly at who it could and should have in, and at the way that apprenticeships and skills and employment and progression opportunities are given. So, I look forward to not just more questions, but to a more detailed conversation with the Member on that.

Sam Rowlands MS: Thank you, Minister, for bringing forward today's statement. I certainly welcome the overall objectives of looking to get as many young people engaged with work, with self-employment, with training or education. So, I certainly welcome that. I also welcome the specific reference to seeking support for young people into entrepreneurship as well. It's fantastic that so many young people want to set up their own businesses, and that support should be within this guarantee to enable them to do that as best as possible.
Minister, you mentioned the cross-working nature of much of this work with other Government departments, and it's true, of course, that schools do play a significant part in not just the obvious educational attainment of pupils, but also an important role in encouraging young people to pursue the most appropriate route for them, whether that be work, further training or, indeed, into self-employment. I was surprised in your statement to not see a specific reference to the role that schools will play in delivering, or helping to deliver, this young person's guarantee. So, perhaps you could outline how you would see that relationship developing with schools to encourage young people to pursue the route that is most appropriate for them. Thank you.

Vaughan Gething AC: I remember many debates around the role of school, and by the time people are of school leaving age, the fact that many of your patterns for life are already set: your expectations about who you are, for better or for worse, but crucially also, the way you see yourself and whether you think a career is a realistic option for you. Many people have not necessarily consciously ruled out careers and opportunities, but it's partly about what happens in the school but also outside school as well—the point about aspiration and expectation for yourself, for your community as well. That is why I think it is important that the programme of work experience we've already run—and, in fact, your colleague Paul Davies referred to this—about deliberately looking to get opportunities from businesses and speakers into schools to highlight the variety of careers that are available.
But it also goes then to Joyce Watson's question and point about how you see careers and not just rule yourself out, but the businesses themselves making clear that there are careers for everybody within their sector. And it is important for more of that reality of choice, not just the theoretical prospect of it, but the reality of a real choice for you to make of the sort of careers, but to understand what you need to do to achieve. It's why the point about traineeships and alternative qualifications is so very important, because some people leave school without great academic qualifications. But actually, those people can still have highly successful careers in other parts of the economy, and it's why, again, the advice, the guidance and the support element of the guarantee is so very important.
And, of course, that means working with schools, to work with the advice that we know that they provide to young people, but like I said, make sure there is a variety of choices and opportunities that are real for all of those people for the sorts of skills they do have, rather than telling people what they can't do, to look at what they can do, and where that allows them to be successful in life. And, of course, the world of work is a major part of that.

Jack Sargeant AC: Minister, I very much welcome today's statement, in particular the guarantee itself. After all, it was a Welsh Labour Government who supported my route through my apprenticeship at a local small and medium-sized enterprise in Deeside. And you'll be well aware that Airbus UK in my constituency is a huge employer for apprentices and graduate trainees, and I've been particularly impressed with Airbus's commitment and adaptability over the pandemic, who have continued to offer work experience for Welsh students between the ages of 14 and 19. I think it's over 3,500 students have now completed that programme online—a fantastic achievement.
Now, you'll know as well as me, Minister, the company has publicly stated their global ambition is to lead the decarbonisation of the aerospace sector, with a commitment to manufacture the world's first zero-emissions commercial jet liner by 2035. Now, that's a very important step there. Wales can lead the way, but we will need our future generations to help deliver that. Minister, can you outline how you can support employers like Airbus and similar employers in this sector as part of this guarantee, ensuring that the next generation are equipped with the skills required to design, develop and manufacture the next generation of carbon-neutral products?

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the question. I think it's a very practical example of where we're already engaged in supporting a major employer, but looking at a sector that provides really well-paid jobs. The investment we've continually made in broadly more skills, and I'm pleased to hear the Member reference the fact that it was Welsh Labour funding that helped him to achieve his own apprenticeship, and his own route through to being an engineer, and there are more of those people in sites like Airbus around the country. Now, as well as the new generation—I've met new apprentices when I've been on a visit to the site in Broughton—it's also about the investment in the workforce who are already there, and that's got to be a partnership between the Government and sectors, and sometimes with individual businesses.
So, we've invested in the past in a skills programme. There are conversations between the Government and the company about what we could be able to do in the future, because you're right to point out that this is a sector that at present contributes to our challenges with the environment. We know that we're going to need to go through at least a couple of stages to get to genuine net zero. There's the point about having more sustainable aviation fuels, and Airbus and others are investing in that, which will lead to significant decarbonisation. There's another step beyond, and that's both about the fuel that's used and also about the manufacturing and how light the aircraft are themselves. Airbus are already taking steps forward on that and crucially there needs to be more research, development and innovation, and the way that we can fund and support that will be crucial for the sector—this sector, but many others too. I think it's a good example of a successful, high-value area of the economy that we want to see carry on being successful, and our work alongside the company and the sector will be crucial in doing just that.

Finally, James Evans.

James Evans MS: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'd like to thank the Minister for your statement and give credit where credit is due. I do welcome this young person's guarantee from the Welsh Government. I think it's very good that we're going to be offering people under the age of 25 work, education and training, and opportunities for those people to become self-employed.
I do have a couple of questions, though, which I hope you can answer. My colleague Paul Davies asked you about the support that was going to be provided for young people to set up their own businesses, and that is a big barrier for many people when they want to start their own businesses—access to finance. I didn't think you answered that question from Paul Davies, and if you could outline what support is going to be available, I'd be very grateful.
Finally, with regard to apprenticeships and further education, the regional learning and skills partnerships are going to play a key role in helping you to develop this policy going forward, so can you just please outline, Minister, what discussions you've had with the regional learning and skills partnerships and how they're going to work with you to develop this scheme? Thank you.

Vaughan Gething AC: Yes, I'm happy to do so. I did actually deal with Paul Davies's question, in that I indicated that I'd have a further announcement to make on the detail of that support, but I also indicated that I was looking at previous practice that had had some success on a number of start-up grants, as well as the business support that is provided as well. It isn't just the money; it's the actual support and the guidance people get as they look to set up their own business, particularly people setting up in business for the first time. One of the key factors in some of the challenges within the labour market at present is we've seen lots of small businesses cease trading right across the UK. It's not just a challenge here in Wales. We know that's a key part of actually growing and having a successful economy: new business growth and the numbers of people running successful small businesses. I will have more to say, but I'm not going to try and prejudge an announcement that will be coming in the weeks ahead.
On regional skills partnerships, though, they're already going to lead engagement activities. I covered this in some of the statement. They're going to work with the businesses and stakeholders, so businesses and providers of qualifications, skills, education and training. They're going to hold a minimum of two events in each of the regions, and they're going to gather together and work with my officials to understand what business feedback there is, what provider feedback there is, and we'll look to match that up with the direct engagement we have with young people as well, to try to make sure that we understand what's needed within that particular region for the skills challenges they have, and how we're best able to meet that. But of course this does come back to our ability to do so; we're still dependent on our understanding of where funding is. If the Welsh Government is going to be excluded from funding that in the way we have done consistently for 20 years, then the least we would expect is that the manifesto promises that have been made, on not losing out on any of that funding, are actually met. I'm afraid, at the moment, the budget settlement from the UK Government doesn't give us confidence that's going to take place. So, there is a real challenge here, in both the sums of money but then how the money is used. And on how we would want the money to be used, we have a good way of working with partners, and I'm pleased to see you highlight the role regional skills partnerships have, because I think that's a really important way in which we can do business here properly in Wales.

I thank the Minister.

9. Statement by the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution: Update on the Constitutional Commission

The final item today is a statement by the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution on an update on the constitutional commission. I call on the Counsel General, Mick Antoniw.

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Last month, I announced the appointment of the co-chairs to the Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales. I am delighted to be able to come back to the Senedd to announce the appointment of the commissioners.
Each commissioner brings different strengths, knowledge, experience and perspectives. They come from all parts of Wales, across the UK and further afield. Each has been selected for the contribution that they can make. They can cover both constitutional law and practice and the practical implications of constitutional reform. They have real experience at the sharp end of questions such as, 'How will these reforms affect citizens?', 'What will the practical impact be?', 'What can we learn from the experience of other nations, in other times and other places?'

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Mick Antoniw AC: Collectively, they represent both the traditional academic rigour and the new alternative perspectives that the commission will require to think creatively and radically about Wales's future. I welcome the constructive engagement that I was able to have with other parties in the Senedd, as we looked to develop the membership of the commission, and I'm pleased that the membership encompasses a range of political perspectives.
It is important that the commission can properly reflect the citizens of Wales in all of their diversity. I am thrilled to be able to announce the appointment of commissioners from so many experiences, backgrounds and communities. I am confident that we have in place a commission that can develop a roadmap for a better Wales—a more just Wales and a more sustainable Wales.
With no further ado, and in no particular order, here are the nine commissioners who will be joining Dr Rowan Williams and Professor Laura McAllister on the independent commission. Dr Anwen Elias is a reader in politics at Aberystwyth University. Her research interests include comparative territorial and constitutional politics, political parties and deliberative democracy. She is co-director of the Centre for Welsh Politics and Society and the Wales Institute of Social and Economic Research and Data.
Lauren McEvatt is a Conservative former UK Government special adviser to the Wales Office from the coalition administration, where she worked on the Silk commission and the Wales Act 2014. She has subsequently worked for several Governments across east Africa and the Caribbean on constitutional reform, trade and investment.
Kirsty Williams, who needs no introduction in this place, was a Member of the Senedd until last April and Minister for Education during the fifth Senedd. She became the leader of the Welsh Liberal Democrats in December 2008 and at the time, she was the first female leader of any of the four main Welsh political parties.
Albert Owen is the former Labour MP for Ynys Môn from 2001 to 2019. During his time in Parliament, he was a member of the Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy Committee, the Welsh Affairs Committee and the International Development Committee.
Shavanah Taj is Wales TUC's first black, Asian and minority ethnic general secretary. Shavanah is a passionate campaigner and can often be found contributing speeches at round-table debates and protest marches on issues such as anti-racism, just transition, climate change, human rights, women's rights, fair pay and fair work.
Philip Rycroft was a civil servant for 30 years. He worked at a senior level for the devolved Government in Scotland before moving to the Cabinet Office in London where he led civil service work for the UK Government on the constitution and devolution. His last posting was as Permanent Secretary at the Department for Exiting the European Union.
Michael Marmot is Professor of epidemiology and public health at University College London and director of the UCL Institute of Health Equity. Professor Marmot has led research groups on health inequalities for over 40 years. He chaired the World Health Organization commission on social determinants of health, several WHO regional commissions, and reviews on tacking health inequality for Governments in the UK.
Miguela Gonzalez is a diversity and inclusion practitioner and a former journalist. She worked for the BBC for 15 years, most recently as the diversity and inclusion lead for the nations. She currently works for life science firm Abcam, where she is working to build an open and inclusive culture. Miguela has worked with the Welsh Government on the implementation of the Culture Connect Cymru project and has also been a visiting lecturer at Cardiff University's School of Journalism, Media and Culture.
Finally, Leanne Wood, a former Member of the Senedd for the Rhondda and former Leader of Plaid Cymru. As the first female leader of her party, she brings a wealth of political experience and has a long-standing commitment to issues of social justice.
The commissioners will be supported by an expert panel, who will begin to be appointed over the coming weeks. The panel members will bring expertise in governance, law, constitution, economics, finance and more areas of knowledge that are critical to questions of Wales's constitutional future.
The commission will have its first meeting on 25 November, where the First Minister and myself will attend to welcome the commissioners and set out the objectives. After that, the commission will be free to fulfil its remit independently of Government direction. I encourage all of us to take the opportunity to engage with the commission and to join in the national conversation. Diolch, Llywydd.

Darren Millar AC: Thank you, Minister, for advance notice of your statement. As you know, the Welsh Conservatives don't believe that taking the commission forward should be a priority for the Welsh Government. We believe that you have got far bigger fish to fry, frankly, with getting our economy back on track, getting our health service back on track, and getting our education system back on track after the pandemic. But, you haven't listened to that advice. You have gone ahead and established your commission anyway, which I think is disappointing. Nevertheless, we have always said that we would participate in this, and that it's important to have a centre-right voice around the table. That is why we have nominated Lauren McEvatt, who I'm sure will make a very positive contribution to those discussions.
I have to say that, having listened to the words that you have spoken in the past and compared them with what you have delivered today in terms of the composition of the commission, I'm a little bit disappointed. You said back in July that the members of this commission must represent all ages and be drawn from the widest possible range of sectors in civic society—public, private, third sector, civic sector and grassroots organisations and social partners. I don't see much of the private sector on this list. I don't see much of the third sector on this list. I don't see any grass-roots organisations on this list either. I think, therefore, that it is not going to be wholly representative in terms of the work that it takes forward.
We have also, of course, questioned the wisdom of one of the co-chairs being appointed, with that particular individual being a former Plaid Cymru parliamentary candidate. But, again, this is something that you have decided to appoint. You have made these decisions without any consultation with my party or other political parties in this Chamber, other than inviting a single nomination around the table. So, I don't think, actually, that the make-up of this particular commission is sufficiently broad, as you had originally intended it to be.
I also asked you some questions when you made a statement last month about the commission. I asked how much this commission was going to cost. You didn't answer that question. You said that you'd come back and answer it. You have had the opportunity to put some more flesh on the bones today, in terms of the potential cost of this commission. We have got the Welsh Government's budget coming up in just a few weeks' time. So, I would have thought that you would have done some homework, got the calculator out, and actually determined how much this thing is going to cost over the next two years, because that, of course, is the time window that you have given it. So, can you tell us today: what are the allowances that are going to be paid to the co-chairs? What are the allowances that are going to be paid to the members of the commission? Are they being paid a set amount, or is it on a per-meeting basis? How is this thing going to actually work? I think that people are interested. The public is interested in that.
I think, also, that we are very interested in who the expert panel of advisers are going to be. You have said that you are going to outline the names of the expert panel in due course, and I'm pleased to hear that. But, can I suggest that, given the lack of breadth and diversity of the commission itself, perhaps you can build that into the expert panel, going forward, so that we can make sure that there is the diversity that everyone wants to see contributing to this process?
Finally, I just want to make this point, if I may. You and I obviously recognise that constitutional matters, as far as the future of the UK is concerned, are matters for the whole of the United Kingdom, not just one constituent part, which Wales is. Therefore, having this conversation in isolation, without having wider discussions on a UK basis is, potentially, going to be pretty futile. Therefore, can I ask: what discussion has the Welsh Government had with the UK Government, with the Scottish Government, with the Northern Ireland Executive about the way that this commission will undertake its work and how it can contribute to a wider piece of work, which, obviously, will need to be done on a UK-wide basis if there’s going to be any hope of this being a meaningful exercise? Thank you.

Mick Antoniw AC: Can I thank you for those points? They’re all valid points and raise important issues—issues that we’ve been giving a lot of thought to over the past couple of months, and have been the subject of considerable discussion.
Just firstly on the constitution, the constitution is at the core of almost everything that is happening at the moment: Brexit, the trade and co-operation agreement, Northern Ireland, article 16, events in Scotland, the impact in terms of Northern Ireland, relations with the Republic of Ireland, and so on. I think this issue with the constitution is, I suppose, using the word 'constitution', rather than using all the institutions and levers of power and governance that impact so much on people’s lives. It is something that is vitally important. I, of course, understand your opinion, although, of course, it is not the position of the UK Government, which is engaging, constitutionally, on a day-by-day basis. You have a whole host of Ministers whose main function and role is dealing with issues relating to the constitution.
In terms of the issue in terms of the breadth and the diversity of it, I do think we do have a very broad and a very diverse commission with a considerable and wide range of skills. It is certainly the case—. A lot of thought has been given, and a lot of names have been considered, and skills, and whether people would be available, whether people would be able to contribute, and so on, and how that would interact with the engagement process, and so on. But what I think we do have is a commission that is very wide ranging, immensely skilled, and I think has the whole host of skills that the commission’s going to need. It is, of course, true that it is very, very difficult, with 11 people—nine persons and two co-chairs—to actually include all the sorts of skills and diversity you want. You end up with a commission that becomes too large and too bureaucratic.
That leads into, really, the other point you raised, which is, I think, the issue of the expert panel. Of course, there is work that is ongoing around that and, of course, there has to be engagement over that with the co-chairs and, indeed, with the commission members now, and also to ensure the flexibility. So, you are right; in terms of business, in terms of finance, and those skills, we have thought very, very carefully about this, and I know the co-chairs and the commission members are beginning to think very carefully about those as well. But I think the flexibility that will be in the system there is to actually bring in experts as and when needed in particular areas. For example, the programme of work that the commission has will, to some extent, determine some of the very specific experts that need to be brought it. So, I think, having that degree of flexibility within it and the way it works is going to be important. But, as I say, there is a lot more thought that is going into that.
That then also leads on to the issue in terms of all the other sectors and so on, and the engagement process. I think if you take those three together, you have something that is not only, I think, very high profile, very highly skilled, but has the capacity, I think, to reach into all the corners of our society and our communities and our institutions, and have that engagement. And, in many ways, the engagement process is almost the most important bit—making sure that works. I’ve said that many times as well.
With regard to the cost and budget, just to say first of all, the terms on which commission members are actually engaged are pretty standard across the UK in commissions of this particular sort. The actual full costing and budgeting and so on is still being worked on, and, of course, there will be a budget statement, so there will be an opportunity there. I will write with further details, it’s just I don’t have those full details at the moment.
In terms of the UK as a whole, let’s just make one thing clear: this is a Welsh commission, and of course it will have to engage with UK Government. It will have to engage with commissions that are taking place anywhere, but I've outlined previously the considerable difficulty we have had having any engagement whatsoever with the UK Government on the issues of fundamental constitutional reform. We have a difficulty with the UK Government in that it finds it very difficult to even use the term 'devolved Government', and I think that probably tells you something.
But, look, this will be a matter for the commission. Once the commission has formally launched now on the twenty-fifth, it will develop its own plan of action, its own process of engagement. And I've said on a number of occasions in this Senedd that I would expect it to engage and to utilise every opportunity that there is in terms of carrying out its work, engaging in the interests of Wales, and to putting forward views and working towards eventually building up to an interim report and then a full report.

Rhys ab Owen AS: I'd like to thank you, Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution, for your statement this afternoon.

Rhys ab Owen AS: There is no doubt that devolution in Wales has been a journey; it's been a long one. If you think of it for a moment, with our environmental hats on, as a rail journey from London—and the Llywydd will be pleased with this—to Aberystwyth. Now, there are very few who want us to stay in Paddington. There are even fewer who want direct rule from a viceroy-type John Redwood in a Whitehall office, while there are a few over there on the Conservative benches who want to go back to the age of steam and roll devolution back. The majority of us here, and in Wales, want to go full steam ahead, full speed ahead on the devolution journey—hopefully, Llywydd, on to Aberystwyth in an electric train, through the Welsh countryside, avoiding the constituencies of some anti-Senedd Tory MPs in Shropshire on the way.
Unlike Darren Millar, I welcome the appointment of the commissioners. As the Counsel General said, we can't include everyone, and we all know who'd be the first to complain if there were too many commissioners appointed.

Rhys ab Owen AS: This is a very striking collection of commissioners who have broad ranging experience. I'm very pleased that this is the most diverse commission that we have seen in Wales to date, and it's encouraging to see more women than men as members of the commission. If I could just name a few members specifically: Dr Anwen Elias brings great academic experience to the commission. She's written recently in The Welsh Agenda, with her colleagues at Aberystwyth University, on the challenge of including people beyond the usual suspects in our national conversation to ensure that the commission is as inclusive as possible. I very much hope that we can use some of the innovative ways that Dr Anwen Elias and her colleagues at Aberystwyth University have been trialling over the summer. But, of course—

Rhys ab Owen AS: —Counsel General, a more deliberative democracy does cost money. So, will the Counsel General commit to making sure that the commission is resourced sufficiently to enable the wider conversation that we want to happen to happen?
Lauren McEvatt, the Conservative nominee, is welcome, and, obviously, a constructive Conservative. We still have a few of them left. And she has considerable experience of the Silk commission. Despite the bluster over there of Darren Millar and others, I am pleased—[Interruption.]—I am pleased that the Conservatives are taking part in this commission.
The appointment of Shavanah Taj, Wales TUC general secretary, is particularly welcome as the voice of workers in Wales. And this is apt, isn't it, because the creation of the Welsh TUC in 1974 was an important step on the devolution journey. The Wales TUC were ahead of the curve when it came to devolution, and it took others a while to catch up.
I also welcome the appointments of Albert Owen and Kirsty Williams, but particularly so my South Wales Central predecessor Leanne Wood. Think how far we've come on this journey. When Kirsty Williams and you, Llywydd, and also the Minister for social services, were first elected here, in 1999, this was a corporate body. When Leanne was first elected, in 2003, she was elected to a body that wasn't a primary legislative Parliament, and without any tax-raising powers. Leanne Wood has constantly pushed for improvements within our devolution settlement. From her paper, 'Making Our Communities Safer' in 2008, calling for the devolution of criminal justice, to 'A greenprint for the Valleys', advocating for Wales to have powers over the Crown Estate, and then to 'The change we need', where she put forward a radical agenda for ensuring that decisions affecting Wales are decided here in Wales in the hands of the people of Wales. As she said today, with Scotland likely to determine its own future in the next few years, this is an opportunity for the people of Wales to have the biggest conversation about our future as a nation than we've ever had. And Leanne Wood is right there, and that conversation is vitally important. We live in a social media age that polarises views and stresses mutual animosity. That's why a conversation is so important, that we listen carefully to others, especially those of differing views.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Counsel General, as regards the expert panel, how they will be appointed, and when do you believe they will be appointed? And I note that the secretariat will be separate from the civil service, but can we ensure that the secretariat does receive support and resources from the civil service when necessary?

Rhys ab Owen AS: I am looking forward to seeing this commission engaging with people constructively across Wales. It is important to ensure that the future of Wales is in the hands of the Welsh people. Plaid Cymru, of course, still believes Wales can and Wales will be an independent nation one day. It's not a matter of if but when we become independent, but, for now, let our journey continue. And on that journey, let us be willing to listen to uncomfortable truths, but, more importantly, act upon them. Diolch yn fawr.

Mick Antoniw AC: Can I thank the Member for his comments and contributions? We have indeed been on a devolution journey that continues, and society continually changes. Constitutions continually change. Nothing remains static. You asked a number of quite important questions. The expert panel in terms of the size, and so on, I think I'll probably put out a written statement in due course when there's further information on that. Obviously, it's very important that the members of the commission and the co-chairs are inputting into the design of that, because it is partly dependent on the framework of the engagement process—the strategic plan that they will be developing in terms of how they will carry out their work. But it is an additional opportunity in terms of additional skills and diversity to input into that.But the commission is the body that will be taking the key decisions.
Can I just say, I'm very pleased that the Wales TUC's Shavanah Taj has joined the commission, because representing something like 0.5 million trade union members within Wales, their input is really, really significant, and they are, of course, having their own commission? So, there is a natural interlink there.
I agree with you also, in terms of the considerations in terms of funding, that it has to be able to do its job properly to engage, otherwise there is no purpose to setting up the commission.
I agree very much with some of the comments that I think were leading to, I suppose, some of the comments that one of the co-chairs, Laura McAllister, has made recently publicly, which is that this puts us on the front foot. It enables us to be in the position, when we know change is occurring, change is happening—we can see that all around us, not just in Westminster, perhaps globally and certainly on the European scene as well—for once, where what's important is that, from Wales, we are able to put forward our position, that we are not solely reactive to events and decisions that are being taken elsewhere. And it seems to me that is a sign of the maturity of the politics and democracy that are developing within Wales.
Can I just finish on a point of, I suppose, unity, and so on, with two particular quotes? One was,
'Diversity is the one true thing we all have in common'.
Of course, that was Winston Churchill. And the other is,
'When everyone is included, everyone wins',
and that was Jesse Jackson. Diolch, Llywydd.

Gareth Davies AS: Thank you, Counsel General, for the statement that you've made this evening. But, with the greatest respect, was there any real point to this statement this afternoon? Do you truly believe that this commission is a good use of Welsh Government time and resources, given the state of our NHS and social care system?
While I have real concerns about the make-up of this commission politically—I mean, talk about one-sided and jobs for the boys—I'm more concerned about what it would cost the Welsh taxpayer, like my colleague Darren Millar asked you earlier on in the discussion. Counsel General, will you provide a breakdown on the costings of conducting this commission, both in terms of financial outlay as well as the cost of diverting Welsh Government staff from other essential duties? Thank you.

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, thank you for your comments. I always worry when someone starts off their speech with 'with the greatest respect', which then means they're going to proceed with absolutely no respect whatsoever. I also then get a bit worried when the person then says about a commission that is seven female to four male, that it's 'jobs for the boys', and I wonder when you wrote the speech whether you touched on this—not as fleet of foot as you might have liked to be. I've already answered the issue of cost. I really don't see a great deal of point in going over the old ground of the commission; we've well debated that. We have an electoral mandate for this commission to go forward, and I believe it is an incredibly timely commission that is being set up at this juncture in the constitutional future of the UK, of Europe, and the global situation in the world. Thank you.

And that was the final request to speak on that statement, so that brings our work for the afternoon today to an end. Thank you very much.

The meeting ended at 18:12.

QNR

Questions to the First Minister

Vikki Howells: What are the Welsh Government's priorities for responding to the climate emergency?

Mark Drakeford: Our recently published 'Net Zero Wales' plan sets out our priorities for emissions reduction. Everyone has a role to play in tackling the climate emergency and our priorities reflect the need to engage the public, communities and businesses and work collaboratively towards a stronger, greener, fairer Wales.

Llyr Gruffydd: Will the First Minister make a statement on the independence of the process of overseeing the Ministerial Code in Wales?

Mark Drakeford: The ministerial code sets out how complaints are investigated, including any engagement with an independent adviser.

Cefin Campbell: Will the First Minister make a statement on delayed transfers of care in the Hywel Dda University Health Board area?

Mark Drakeford: We continue to work closely with health and social care partners in the Hywel Dda region and across Wales to support timely transfers of care. We have provided significant additional funding and we are supporting a number of initiatives in the region to improve patient flow and prevent hospital admission.

Jane Dodds: Will the First Minister provide an update on the Welsh Government's roads review announced in June 2021?

Mark Drakeford: The review is under way and the panel is considering projects and the scope of the review. An interim report setting out their appraisal method is due to be submitted to Ministers in December and the final report and recommendations are expected in June 2022.